Linux Users, What's You Distro Experience?

[j_e_g]

There is simply no loophole through the extra software layer

Did you miss where I previously point out that this "software layer" isn't even compiled into the linux kernel by default?

This is easy to verify. ALSA is open source, Go to the ALSA website and download the "drivers" source code. The OSS emulation is contained in the source file "sound/core/sound_oss.c".

Notice that all the code in here is contained within the conditional directive:

#ifdef CONFIG_SND_OSSEMUL

Then note that the default is to leave CONFIG_SND_OSSEMUL _UNDEFINED_. In other words, this software layer is not even compiled into the kernel.

Let me repeat that, in order to underscore the absurdity of your argument:

THE SOFTWARE LAYER TO WHICH YOU REFER ISN'T EVEN INCLUDED IN THE LINUX OS FOLKS ARE RUNNING (let alone a "significant" factor in latency).

And it has been this way since (as I recall about) 2010.

how can... ALSA... become fast when it sits on top of something slow?

Here's a better question:

How can ALSA sit on top of something that isn't there?

Oh this is humiliating for you. There are many people, including folks reading this very thread, who will testify that I'm the most evil, despicable, unsympsthetic, empathy-deprived monster ever. And yet you've managed to somehow make me feel pity for you. At least, I assume this uncomfortable burning sensation inside me is pity. It could be my lunch at Taco Bell. But regardless of whether I'm reacting to the stench emanating from my own butt, or reacting to your misinformed claims about audio systems, it all smells the same.

ALSA did not magically upgrade in the last years

At this point, I'm not convinced you have any familiarity with the progress of ALSA development (nor WASAPI, CoreAudio, Pipewire, or even ASIO). After all, it appears you failed to notice that an ALSA update 14 years ago removed code which you mistakenly believe is still included in the kernel.

let ChatGPT speak: ... the finest details and reasons... of latency
and what the fuzz is about: www.sweetwater.com

So the source of your "knowledge" is provided by a consumer grade artificial intelligence program, and a music store website?

That explains a lot.

How embarrassing for you. I'm enjoying this. I predict that further discussion will offer me much amusement. And yet I have a compelling urge to advise you, for your own sake, to quickly retreat from this thread. How uncharacteristically gracious of me. This _must_ be pity.

nobody wants to do some tests and come up with facts.

I've aleady done so. For example in demonstrating that your claim, that ALSA's OSS emulation has any bearing upon latency, is METAPHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

you can't outsmart physics.

Maybe not. But then again, in your version of physics E = Mc Donald's,

[audiojunkie]

And now a quote battle? Really?

since ASIO operates a tad bit closer to the hardware.

Incorrect.

This alone lets me stop any further discussion. I told it before, i am not interested in ideology blah blah or propaganda lies. And this is one. There is simply no loophole through the extra software layer that you eagerly want to discuss away here. That's not how it works.

ALSA is speedwise comarable with Directsound if even. It is by classes and design slower than ASIO. ASIO is highly optimized to have low latency. ALSA not. It never was, it never will be. Jack was the one, but Jack sits on top of ALSA. Pipewire was the one, but also Pipewire sits on top of ALSA. Pulseaudio was another attempt, and guess what, it sits on top of ALSA. Now tell me how something can become fast when it sits on top of something slow? And brings its own latency too? That's what you try since several pages now.

ALSA did not magically upgrade in the last years from one of the slowest audio drivers to one of the fastest. Since the architecture is still the same, nothing has changed at the architecture and how it is used.

Interestingly nobody wants to do some tests and come up with facts. In fear that i could be right? You missed a chance here.

To let ChatGPT speak: In terms of latency, ALSA is generally slower than ASIO. You don't believe me anyways, so ask ChatGPT why. It can even explain you the finest details and reasons.

And for those who doesn't even know what ASIO is and what the fuzz is about: https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/ar ... e-drivers/

Steinberg designed this format to improve latency performance and channel count compared to Windows Audio drivers. ASIO (Audio Stream Input Output) allows the software to bypass Windows Audio and gives direct communication to the hardware.

Direct is the key here. Compared to the already two software layers of Jack and ALSA. Whith ALSA having yet another compatibility layer underneath by design. I told it before, you can't outsmart physics. Not with all propaganda and quote battles in the world.

You’re so wrong (and unpleasant) on so many levels. All I can stand to say is, “Congratulations!” In over 20 years of being on KVRAudio, I never muted anyone until now. You sir, will be the first—although I came close once with Bones. I hope at some point the mods will finally see you for the nasty troll that you are, but until then, I’m muting you.

[Tiles]

Enough is enough. You trolls are at ignore now.

I repeat, i am not interested in flaming, not interested in propaganda lies, not interested in quote battles. And i will not discuss with toxic people. When you think that lying at people and yourself, and killing everybody else who is not your opinion will help your golden calf, then that's your decision. As a hint, this trick did not work the last 25 years. It is very unlikely that it will work the next 25 years. No matter what rabbit you pull out of your hat.

But when you want to discuss with me and cannot discuss in a human manner then i will not discuss with you at all.

Have fun.

ignore.jpg

[dellboy]

Lemme get this straight: what you have considered is not what you have actually tried? Some you have tried, but not with a DAW? You did try Puppy, but you're not telling us your verdict?

The idea of a public forum is not to hold your cards. Experience sharing is done here:
viewtopic.php?t=144490

I find this whole distro-picking business exemplary of:

Linux is free
If you don't value your time

Does the idea of "Linux is free" matter any more? I am on Windows 11, and the last time I recall paying for Windows is probably Windows 7. Does Apple even charge for OSX anymore? I have tried Puppy Linux for DAW use in the past, and it can be made to work with some difficulty,and you can have a whole OS and DAW setup on a USB stick in your pocket. But like you say, if time matters to you, its best to stick to OSX or Windows.

[j_e_g]

i will not discuss with you at all.

After humiliating yourself earlier, this is your wisest (and only) recourse.

If you actually do what you say you're going to do, I'll be forced to admit that you're smarter than your misinformed claims about audio development would seem to indicate.

here's a hint
this trick did not work the last 25 years.

You probably shouldn't "hint" that you've been unemployed for the past 25 years, and consequently been forced to turn tricks for money.

Have fun.

Already accomplished.

[ghettosynth]

Lemme get this straight: what you have considered is not what you have actually tried? Some you have tried, but not with a DAW? You did try Puppy, but you're not telling us your verdict?

The idea of a public forum is not to hold your cards. Experience sharing is done here:
viewtopic.php?t=144490

I find this whole distro-picking business exemplary of:

Linux is free
If you don't value your time

Does the idea of "Linux is free" matter any more? I am on Windows 11, and the last time I recall paying for Windows is probably Windows 7. Does Apple even charge for OSX anymore? I have tried Puppy Linux for DAW use in the past, and it can be made to work with some difficulty,and you can have a whole OS and DAW setup on a USB stick in your pocket. But like you say, if time matters to you, its best to stick to OSX or Windows.

Well, it's a free as in beer free as in speech kind of thing. That said, Windows is not free as in beer. Sure, if you buy a new computer, it will come with a license, but I find windows home irritating so I either have to buy a PC that comes with pro, or get a license. Yes you can install it without much limitation, but that background is annoying, so there we are.

Even though the free as in beer argument holds less weight than it used to, the free as in speech does not. In fact, with Microsoft wanting more and more of your data, it has even more value to the privacy sensitive.

Finally, the whole "if you value your time" argument does apply to the average person who doesn't really know unix, but, for others, it's exactly the opposite. I wouldn't be using windows as much as I do if it wasn't for WSL and the main reason is the time savings that I get from using Linux for so many processing and development tasks. I get it, that's not everyone, but learning unix is worth the effort if you're even slightly technical.

[glokraw]

From a musician and/composer perspective, I ask myself a few questions:
1. Does this OS hinder or enhance my creativity?
2. Am I happy with the selection of music software available in the OS?
3. Does the OS allow old versions to be used without issues?
4. Does the OS actively provide or integrate new capabilities?
5. Does the OS allow significant personal customization?
6. Does the hardware typical of using the OS fit in my budget?
7. Does the software on the OS that is needed for my creativity fit my budget?
8. Is the OS secure?
9. Does the OS gather my personal data and/or track my usage?

Regarding linux, the answer to question 3 is crucial. My 'best' linux setup is a few years old,
with some old-version apps that I rely on currently approaching trainwreck status

Question 2 was ansered by the arrival of wine, Reaper, wineasio, and more recently, successful plugin wrappers, and the arrival of linux-native daws, plugins, and music software.
Mi dos centavo$

[glokraw]

I should add that I maintain several different linux setups, newest and older, suited to various tasks.
Most linux troubles I read about are the result of trying to do everything using just one system.
Importantly, having secondary systems for testing 'new' things is easily accomplished with installations on external drives.
Cheers

[j_e_g]

the last time I recall paying for Windows is probably Windows 7.

Oh dear. You should have stopped paying after Windows XP.

Does Apple even charge for OSX anymore?

No. Apple's current policy is to allow you to freely download an updated trojan which will deliberately tank the performance of all your current Apple products in order to frustrate you into replacing them all with the latest models.

Forget about "The Predator versus The Alien". I want to see a movie named "The Predator _and_ The Alien versus Apple's Marketing Department". Now that would be an epic battle.

[glokraw]

if time matters to you, its best to stick to OSX or Windows.

To the extent that 'time is money', what many hobbyist musicians, and most musician stores, would recommend as a needed collection of gear and software, is quite expensive, unless one is a diehard no-brainer-sale comparison shopper.
( then again there are members of forums far and wide driving $20K and $30K cars, who might be happier and healthier with a $16K or $26K car, and a $4000 spending spree on music gear ) Mac is too expensive for many, and windoze is far too boring for me. YMMV, and I hope quite happily

[EnGee]

Your post is just in time! Thank you! Yesterday I downloaded version 22 and prepared a usb stick to boot it but then wasn't sure of upgrading my stable Mint/Alsa/Bitwig setup.

How did you upgrade? I read the quick guide and there wasn't a path for upgrading, just to delete what I have and install Mint 22 from scratch (i.e. no upgrade option if I boot the PC with the usb stick). So, do I need to install everything again after installing Mint 22 to the Mint 21 partition (Bitwig, u-he, TAL, ...etc)?

I'm also curios if Studio One Pro (beta) would install and function in Mint 22. For the current one I have, I couldn't install it because of some library lacking (dependency problem).

[Edit]
I found this video. I will give it a go tomorrow

I upgraded in place using the upgrade tool in that video. I was a bit worried that it would overwrite my Windows system partition,but all went well, and it upgraded nicely,no problems that I have yet to notice. I selected "Pipewire" in the Bitwig audio setup. I also installed "wireplumber",not sure if it was needed,but installed it anyway.

Fantastic! I just finished the upgrade (which took about 35 mins or so). The Mint 22 seems fantastic! Bitwig is running with Pipewire the same latency as with Alsa and YouTube runs no problem! It is not on Par with my Mac and better than in Windows (where I have a problem that Bitwig doesn't let the driver go when I close it, and of course it doesn't let it run in the background as Cubase or Studio One does). Oh, let me try S1 beta now!

[dellboy]

Fantastic! I just finished the upgrade (which took about 35 mins or so). The Mint 22 seems fantastic! Bitwig is running with Pipewire the same latency as with Alsa and YouTube runs no problem! It is not on Par with my Mac and better than in Windows (where I have a problem that Bitwig doesn't let the driver go when I close it, and of course it doesn't let it run in the background as Cubase or Studio One does). Oh, let me try S1 beta now!

Good to hear that it all went well for you. Did you mean to say that audio is "now" on a par with Mac? (you wrote "not") I have not been able to get Studio One to work properly,its too bug laden. It wont even load its own internal instruments, and it does not run Pipewire.

[dellboy]

Even though the free as in beer argument holds less weight than it used to, the free as in speech does not. I

Yes, I take your point about "free", as in speech.

[EnGee]

Fantastic! I just finished the upgrade (which took about 35 mins or so). The Mint 22 seems fantastic! Bitwig is running with Pipewire the same latency as with Alsa and YouTube runs no problem! It is not on Par with my Mac and better than in Windows (where I have a problem that Bitwig doesn't let the driver go when I close it, and of course it doesn't let it run in the background as Cubase or Studio One does). Oh, let me try S1 beta now!

Good to hear that it all went well for you. Did you mean to say that audio is "now" on a par with Mac? (you wrote "not") I have not been able to get Studio One to work properly,its too bug laden. It wont even load its own internal instruments, and it does not run Pipewire.

Yes, I meant it is on par with Mac. I make sometimes stupid mistakes

Anyway, the super nice feature that is unique to Mac is that you can use one audio interface for input and another for output It comes handy sometimes when you have problems in the input or output in one of the interfaces. Not sure, I think Jack server can do that as well, but it was years since I had setup with Jack Server, so I don't remember now.

Oh good to know about S1. I will try it anyway, because on Mint 21 I couldn't run the installation. Just curious how it would run and what usage I might have from it.

[dellboy]

if time matters to you, its best to stick to OSX or Windows.

To the extent that 'time is money', what many hobbyist musicians, and most musician stores, would recommend as a needed collection of gear and software, is quite expensive, unless one is a diehard no-brainer-sale comparison shopper.
( then again there are members of forums far and wide driving $20K and $30K cars, who might be happier and healthier with a $16K or $26K car, and a $4000 spending spree on music gear ) Mac is too expensive for many, and windoze is far too boring for me. YMMV, and I hope quite happily

I am writing this reply from Mint Linux, and I have just spent an hour trying to get Studio One to work on this OS, and have decided to give up. And this is a paid for DAW that is supposed to be Linux native.