Leaving Headroom? Gain Staging? seems all Bullsh*t again! (Digital Domain/DAW)

[Caine123]

hi guys,

yeah i named the topic like that to provoke, maybe im wrong so yeah hopefully many people read that and correct my findings !

i did mix/master nearly 1 year nothing serious, just more ambient and stuff and there i dont even notice much of these problems at all, maybe cause i dont clip at all and if something is too loud i already notice it mostly + i always got a limiter on my master.

HEADROOM:
so after doing some more harsh tracks like DnB, Hardtechno, Harder Synthwave etc. i noticed that my mix/master is pretty loud and maybe i just am a noob after many years still so i noticed i didnt leave headroom, with my ambient tracks i am not hitting the 0dB on my master asap/not like these tracks. then i started to ruen down the mixer faders etc. and google and was fully making myself unsure wtf i do and so on. and suddenly i found me again in a vicious circle.
people say = ALWAYS leave headroom
people say = doesnt matter, it just needs to sound good
people say = in DAW, digital domain Headroom is bollocks

i found some videos and a nice video of Dan Worrall


also a 2nd one


so is this all Bollocks? i mean i always am not driving things until you hear unwanted distortion or mix/master like beginner tutorials where you already hear and see how they make the next awesome tight beat but it clips like crazy and just sounds ear hurting .

GAIN STAGING:
Also with gain staging, i noticed that i dont do it, maybe i just forgot it, or whatever. i need to check my older projects, but i mostly just quick mix and master, use my presets and move on, i dont finish most tracks so thats why i might not notice much first . then i investigated this as well and after using gain staging on my last few harder tracks i found out it somehow makes my tracks less energetic, maybe i just dialed my tracks on the wrong side back, even if i used the output gain after feeding distortion, comp etc. the whole track sounds more lifeless. then i googled again and found out also that many people say:
always gain stage
gain stage gives you move headroom
GAIN STAGE is BOLLOCKS in DAW/Digital domain, only thing is important to NOT clip (but even here clipping can be a wanted sound like on kicks/snares)



im really looking forward

thanks for reading and checking!

[legendCNCD]

"GAIN STAGE is BOLLOCKS in DAW/Digital domain" well yes and no. Mostly depends on some plugins wanting to have less than hot signal into them, which is when I use Live's Utility tool to sandwich the plugin in between fex. -6dB -> plugin -> 6dB.

So basically from plugin to plugin it depends on the plugin. On inside the DAW mixer its mostly whatever until it clips audibly

[_al_]

I always thought red lining only mattered on the final output bus.
And indeed, I have plugins that are very often processing well over 0db on various mixer tracks, but I'm always sure to correct them somewhere in the chain, before they hit my various busses.
Can't say I've noticed a plugin distorting because it's over 0db in the plugin, but I guess I would notice if it went through a comp or something, so I guess LegendCNCD is right on that one.

For the record, I have tracks that, if I was to disable my master bus VSTs, the track would be playing at -20db or something.


Doesn't bother me in the slightest

[jethrobull]

As already mentioned, gain staging in the digital domain is pointless. I'm just mindful not to clip the track, especially if I'm going into a vst, for the same reason legendCNCD mentioned. I mean, for example, if your already going into your compressor too hot, you have nothing to play with. The only time I leave headroom is if the label requests it. But yeah, like your thread about LUFS levels. It's pretty much BS. But at least it gives YouTubers something to talk about and feel as if they are all professionals.
Dan Worral is probably the only one I would ever take advice off. And of course, we can hear distortion and clipping, it's not hard to just turn things down. All these stupid measurements and guide's that have come along over the years, it's ridiculous. Just gets in the way and hampers the production with pointless shit to think about. Completely gets in the way of the artists/producers flow of creativity.
Science if great, but sometimes it's not needed

[Synthman2000]

Please allow me to kill this discussion stone dead.

When you start a piece of music, whenever the drums are appearing in your writing process peak them at -14dBFS approx, don't rest on a number, just roughly and you really cannot go wrong. Export/bounce 24 bit depth.

Gain structure in digital matters because any fool who records anything know it relates to analogue gain structure. You are recording a vocal or any instrument ?

It matters whether you are all ITB synth or recording analogue sources.

It is good practice as it becomes one less thing to think about and avoids potentially complex back peddling of your mix later on.

It matters, whoever said it does not matter is an idiot.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

So basically from plugin to plugin it depends on the plugin.

Would be great if all plugins that needed a specific input gain would adopt this 'trim' convention:

[swilow11]

Gain staging doesn't always have to relate to avoiding clipping or whatnot. It's also important to avoid creating the illusion of improvement via increased loudness when applying FX, etc. Throw some saturation on a track and it will probably get louder and sound more vivid and "better" because our ears are biased towards regarding amplitude increase as "better". To truly a/b between effected and not effected, you need to gain stage so there is no significant volume change- you will be hearing a more honest representation of the sound in that way.

[elxsound]

Where it *can* matter:

Leaving headroom can help save you time down the line, because as you add parts, especially in the lower frequency range the master will likely clip.

Saving time: leaving headroom means you don’t have to adjust all your tracks, or start the mixing process too early (where you could end up polishing a turd of a project).

Otherwise everything else is true.

[legendCNCD]

Gain staging doesn't always have to relate to avoiding clipping or whatnot. It's also important to avoid creating the illusion of improvement via increased loudness when applying FX, etc. Throw some saturation on a track and it will probably get louder and sound more vivid and "better" because our ears are biased towards regarding amplitude increase as "better". To truly a/b between effected and not effected, you need to gain stage so there is no significant volume change- you will be hearing a more honest representation of the sound in that way.

This too

[_leras]

I think gain staging is still important in places.

Some plug ins have an optimal input level and it's it's good not to overdo do it and fry these especially if they are on busses.

If you do over do it in a mix and squash too many sounds, you can end up with a more congested sound.

There's a very useful exercise that everyone should try at least once. Take your mix, go through every channel and turn it down by -12db. Turn the output up to compensate and see how the mix sounds. My guess is it'll sound more open, have more separation and be more dynamic.

[kritikon]

I use a reasonable amount of hw, despite obviously doing most composition, mixing, mastering in a DAW. And gain-staging and headroom absolutely does matter. No argument.

If you're only ever in a DAW and doing no music IRL then you possibly could get away with no attention to gain etc. But it can get pretty messy pretty quickly, even if only for mixing. HTF do you mix with faders all over the show and no relation to each other? Yes, you can but it is so much easier if all the faders and buses actually relate to each other. HTF do you compress anything subtly when it's already above your threshold before touching a dial?

[mjolnir]

it's not bullocks at all for analog or integer based WAV files.
But yeah, you're usually safe with 64-bit internal processing and 32-bit floating point WAV files (IEEE float).
And of course if you already use a limiter, then you ARE doing gain staging via THE LIMITER.

[WackyZoundz]

And of course if you already use a limiter, then you ARE doing gain staging via THE LIMITER.

Or anything else that needs a certain input level...

[WAVEFRONT_INSURGENCY]

Usually take everything 12 dB down at the beginning of mixdown