Hi,
I'm new to the world of music theory and trying to learn the basics with online assignments. In this case, I would like your help in identifying the chord in the red rectangle. I know the music is in F major and I think the notes are Bd, D, Bd and G but I can't find the right chord.
Thank you in advance!
What chord is this?
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- KVRAF
- 9834 posts since 15 Sep, 2005 from East Coast of the USA
G minor.
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- KVRer
- 12 posts since 22 Aug, 2024
it's in F major, the chord is the 2nd degree G minor.
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- KVRist
- 99 posts since 18 Nov, 2022
It's a G minor chord in root position with the third doubled rather than the route. This creates a more unstable feel than what usually happens in traditional four-part harmony: the route is usually the note that is doubled. Wait until you hit seventh chords, and people start talking about omitting notes, in those cases often the fifth.
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 6 Jun, 2012 from USA
So given that this is a theory assignment, and I used to teach this in university giving tons of these out ….
I would interpret this more as a passing chord using the dominant 7 second inversion that is lacking a root. I would notate it if V 4/3 . Technically is would be VII half diminished 6 but those all tend to fall under the dominant group so it’s usually just easier to think of it as a V 4/3.
It is more stylistically coherent for the tonal language being used thruout.
The E is acting as a leading tone. Just add in the the C and you will hear it.
It’s important to recognize that tonal language depends on the period which is why I think neighbour passing V makes the most sense. The E is more impactful and dissonant than the D making it more relevant.
You also rarely if ever see ii being used in its root position in these sorts of choral harmony examples making G minor technically correct in isolation but lacking context. You do see the ii7 in its second inversion leading to V in the next phrase which is usually how the sub dominant II was used.
Again, there is no right answer. The second you see a leading tone in tonal harmony , especially these sorts of training paradigms, you are usually dealing with a dominant of one type or another,
Hope that helps.
I would interpret this more as a passing chord using the dominant 7 second inversion that is lacking a root. I would notate it if V 4/3 . Technically is would be VII half diminished 6 but those all tend to fall under the dominant group so it’s usually just easier to think of it as a V 4/3.
It is more stylistically coherent for the tonal language being used thruout.
The E is acting as a leading tone. Just add in the the C and you will hear it.
It’s important to recognize that tonal language depends on the period which is why I think neighbour passing V makes the most sense. The E is more impactful and dissonant than the D making it more relevant.
You also rarely if ever see ii being used in its root position in these sorts of choral harmony examples making G minor technically correct in isolation but lacking context. You do see the ii7 in its second inversion leading to V in the next phrase which is usually how the sub dominant II was used.
Again, there is no right answer. The second you see a leading tone in tonal harmony , especially these sorts of training paradigms, you are usually dealing with a dominant of one type or another,
Hope that helps.
Last edited by NKF on Sun Oct 27, 2024 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 6 Jun, 2012 from USA
The key is clearly in F major. I mean the key signature alone, but the ii 6/5 leading to V then I is about is clear of cadence as one can ask for.surreal wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:29 am It has a tonality of Bflat major with a G note as a passing Bass
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- KVRist
- 99 posts since 18 Nov, 2022
Oh see it now. That D -> E motion in the alto is appoggiatura, and this progression makes more sense because the subsequent chord is a straight tonic chord, so this highlighted chord clearly has dominant, not subdonimant function. So it is better to frame it as some kind of V chord rather than some kind of ii chord. Well-spotted!NKF wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2024 4:59 pm So given that this is a theory assignment, and I used to teach this in university giving tons of these out ….
I would interpret this more as a passing chord using the dominant 7 second inversion that is lacking a root. I would notate it if V 4/3 . Technically is would be VII half diminished 6 but those all tend to fall under the dominant group so it’s usually just easier to think of it as a V 4/3.
It is more stylistically coherent for the tonal language being used thruout.
The E is acting as a leading tone. Just add in the the C and you will hear it.
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- KVRist
- 112 posts since 3 Sep, 2021
I understand the temptation to see this as dominant harmony, i.e. II V I (a perfect cadence in Bflat on the first beat of the 2nd bar)
However if you add the supposed missing C to the chord on the 3rd beat before the passing note it sounds very out of place. The C would only work if you place it under the passing note (E), but this would disrupt the harmonic rhythm. So I would treat this as a simple G minor with a passing note.
The point has been well made that any chord needs to be considered in context. Is the triad of G - Bb - D a G minor chord, or is it the upper elements of C9, or indeed an inverted Bb6 chord without the 5th. We can respectfully disagree as there is often no definitive answer.
However if you add the supposed missing C to the chord on the 3rd beat before the passing note it sounds very out of place. The C would only work if you place it under the passing note (E), but this would disrupt the harmonic rhythm. So I would treat this as a simple G minor with a passing note.
The point has been well made that any chord needs to be considered in context. Is the triad of G - Bb - D a G minor chord, or is it the upper elements of C9, or indeed an inverted Bb6 chord without the 5th. We can respectfully disagree as there is often no definitive answer.
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 6 Jun, 2012 from USA
Which is why the C is omitted. People struggle with first inversion half dismissed chords as dominant chords because it feels like one more thing to add. I always suggested to students to add the root to see if it fits. It does. It isn’t a temptation. It is the only coherent interpretation for the style and exercise nature of the example. You just don’t ever see ii in its first inversion with these types of simple tonal harmonic choral exercises. You rarely see it in the actual music of that era either.
What is important is that the leading tone is there, it is utterly uncharacteristic of early tonal harmony to use ii temporary neighbour chord especially in its root position,
So you could say g minor and the inverted half dimished but it is way to many chords for one quarter note. It is a dominant neighbour.
This is an assignment, the way they teach harmony, they start with simple paradigms. The always teach using the tonic subdominant dominant paradigm.
The D would be marked a non chord tone. The point of these exercises is to make one make decisions as to what actually matters. The biggest indicator of a dominant type chord is the leading tone going to I. G minor is just not an option all things considered. It is not characteristic of the style of harmony, these exercises are always follow tonal harmony to a T.
Look, to the op, theory is just a system of organizing ideas. There are no wrong ways but I can guarantee you that this will be marked as a half dimished dominant substitute leading back to I. The voice leading makes that clear.
What is important is that the leading tone is there, it is utterly uncharacteristic of early tonal harmony to use ii temporary neighbour chord especially in its root position,
So you could say g minor and the inverted half dimished but it is way to many chords for one quarter note. It is a dominant neighbour.
This is an assignment, the way they teach harmony, they start with simple paradigms. The always teach using the tonic subdominant dominant paradigm.
The D would be marked a non chord tone. The point of these exercises is to make one make decisions as to what actually matters. The biggest indicator of a dominant type chord is the leading tone going to I. G minor is just not an option all things considered. It is not characteristic of the style of harmony, these exercises are always follow tonal harmony to a T.
Look, to the op, theory is just a system of organizing ideas. There are no wrong ways but I can guarantee you that this will be marked as a half dimished dominant substitute leading back to I. The voice leading makes that clear.
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- KVRist
- 112 posts since 3 Sep, 2021
Since the 'dominant' harmony explanation is only supported by a weak passing note (E) which would allow the missing C to be sounded, I think the simplest explanation in this case is the better one. It is a G minor chord - and not an inversion either.
The passing E is actually a chromatic passing note in any case as the first phrase is not in F but Bb (perfect cadence on the first beat of the 2nd bar). In other words a passing E natural in Bb, where we might expect Eb. This is a fairly typical device in Bach chorales - which is pretty much the style of this excerpt.
So if the phrase is in Bb, a chord of G minor is diatonic and perfectly normal. It is not a ii chord in F, but a vi chord in Bb.
For anyone still reading, this is all pretty subjective, and shows that in music theory there can often be differing interpretations. I just wanted to make the point to the OP that there is not always a perfect answer.
The passing E is actually a chromatic passing note in any case as the first phrase is not in F but Bb (perfect cadence on the first beat of the 2nd bar). In other words a passing E natural in Bb, where we might expect Eb. This is a fairly typical device in Bach chorales - which is pretty much the style of this excerpt.
So if the phrase is in Bb, a chord of G minor is diatonic and perfectly normal. It is not a ii chord in F, but a vi chord in Bb.
For anyone still reading, this is all pretty subjective, and shows that in music theory there can often be differing interpretations. I just wanted to make the point to the OP that there is not always a perfect answer.
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 6 Jun, 2012 from USA
The leading tone of the key is E.
The phrase is in F. The key signature and cadence in bar two makes that unambiguous.
As to why the chord tone appears on what seems like a weak beat, that would be just standard harmonic acceleration as one approaches the end of the phrase.
Some things become subjective when analyzing very complex tonal harmony. This not so much. This would be a textbook use of the half diminished chord. What you don’t ever see is a ii in its root position as a neighbour chord to the tonic.
If this were an example that was using modern idioms, then open season but I can just look at the passage and see how it is some Bach passage appropriated to teach simple tonal harmony.
There are two interpretations,
1. The D is chord tone.
2. E is the chord tone.
Now try each gbd , then gbe.
Notice that gbd doesn’t sound right ? Notice the parallel 5ths occurring gd to fc. This is why it is clear that the D cannot work without the E which is why the E is the chord tone and the reason why you would label it a half diminished first inversion among other things. The reason the D is there is because without some sort of movement approaching the end of the phrase, it would be uttterly stale. This is why the D is there. The D is not necessary, the E is.
Hope that sort of takes the subjectivity out of it,
The phrase is in F. The key signature and cadence in bar two makes that unambiguous.
As to why the chord tone appears on what seems like a weak beat, that would be just standard harmonic acceleration as one approaches the end of the phrase.
Some things become subjective when analyzing very complex tonal harmony. This not so much. This would be a textbook use of the half diminished chord. What you don’t ever see is a ii in its root position as a neighbour chord to the tonic.
If this were an example that was using modern idioms, then open season but I can just look at the passage and see how it is some Bach passage appropriated to teach simple tonal harmony.
There are two interpretations,
1. The D is chord tone.
2. E is the chord tone.
Now try each gbd , then gbe.
Notice that gbd doesn’t sound right ? Notice the parallel 5ths occurring gd to fc. This is why it is clear that the D cannot work without the E which is why the E is the chord tone and the reason why you would label it a half diminished first inversion among other things. The reason the D is there is because without some sort of movement approaching the end of the phrase, it would be uttterly stale. This is why the D is there. The D is not necessary, the E is.
Hope that sort of takes the subjectivity out of it,
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- KVRist
- 99 posts since 18 Nov, 2022
This progression is kind of great for generating this kind of discussion because it does really sit on the edge. Is it a supertonic chord with a passing tone in the alto to the tonic, or is it a dominant-ish chord using an appoggiatura in the alto? It will also depend very much so on the way the performers interpret it.
As long as you can interpret it and articulate why, I think you can make a case for either. I could say that this is a floaty B-section of E Locrian, which would be absolutely absurd, but I'd probably be able to find a couple of reasons to frustrate a professor or two with my silly idea. I remember getting A's with deliberately bad takes just because I argued them really well.
As long as you can interpret it and articulate why, I think you can make a case for either. I could say that this is a floaty B-section of E Locrian, which would be absolutely absurd, but I'd probably be able to find a couple of reasons to frustrate a professor or two with my silly idea. I remember getting A's with deliberately bad takes just because I argued them really well.