Changing to Linux for music making

[bulevardi]

Of course I'm not going to record 16 tracks of guitar over each other, it was just a test...

Besides that... when I start a new project in Reaper, with 10 tracks loading native linux vst's (e.g. Hive2 from U-He), it slows down way too much so it freezes. (so without wine/yabridge)

I guess when running the same tests on Windows, I'll hit the same wall.

It's a quite recent computer with i5 processor and 16 gig RAM, it shouldn't run into these problems.

[bulevardi]

Ok, just playing again: one Guitar Rig instance in only one track.
After a while it gets sluggish and after half an hour it eats my RAM: 8,5 Gb !

yabridgeswells.jpg

[BertKoor]

Why is it writing to disk?

[mjolnir]

Why is it writing to disk?

i'm not sure either, but maybe it's the database / creation of *.so aliases etc

[planetearth]

Ok, just playing again: one Guitar Rig instance in only one track.
After a while it gets sluggish and after half an hour it eats my RAM: 8,5 Gb !
yabridgeswells.jpg

Maybe Guitar Rig 7 has a memory leak? Or maybe this version of Yarbridge does? The dev posted that Waves (among other plug-ins) has a memory leak, but maybe he didn't test GR7. If you can update GR7 through Native Access, that might help.

I'm not sure the amount of data written to disk by Yarbridge is that big a deal, is it? It's 491 KB against a RAM footprint of 8.5 GB. I think that's where the issue is, but I don't use GR7 enough to know if it's had a memory leak issue.

Steve

[audiojunkie]

@Bulevardi If I’m not mistaken, you mentioned that you have “NOT” tuned your OS for low latency. I tried to look back through the messages of this thread to confirm this, but couldn’t find it. Is this true, or am I imagining things?

If so, this is where the lion’s share of your performance issues are coming from. The results you are seeing are not typical.

It won’t explain the memory leak suspicion, but it will explain your poor performance.

[bulevardi]

@Bulevardi If I’m not mistaken, you mentioned that you have “NOT” tuned your OS for low latency. I tried to look back through the messages of this thread to confirm this, but couldn’t find it. Is this true, or am I imagining things?

If so, this is where the lion’s share of your performance issues are coming from. The results you are seeing are not typical.

I thought about that too yes.
However, opening my other projects with lots of tracks and effects just plays at it should without issues.
I remember I once had the low-latency as startup... but for some reason it got overridden by an update or so?
But my goal is to set it back to low-latency when I know how.
I see that the low-latency kernel is installed but it's not the 'active' kernel.

When I bought this pc it had windows and I directly tried to make it a dual boot by installing Linux Mint aside. However, there was no boot option at startup. I don't know what it was, but there was something that I couldn't get the grub menu installed for some reason.
It was something with EFI or whatever, there's also no typical blue BIOS menu to access.
The solution back then was that I had to install Grub2Win in Windows and manage to set Linux as first choice.
However, it seems I cannot just change it to the right kernel via a Terminal command or changing some .cfg file.
Ok, while searching for it I found out now with a YT video explaining how to do so, I have to boot Windows again to get in that grub2win menu and add another entry with the right kernel:


(will make that kernel switch later today when I'm on that pc and let you know if anything changed)
EDIT: couldn't set or choose another the kernel version

It won’t explain the memory leak suspicion, but it will explain your poor performance.

Perhaps it's the fact that I was only able to install Guitar Rig by downloading a demo and activate it later... instead of being able to download the Pro version somewhere.
There is no possibility to download the pro version via your account.
You have to install that Native Access 2 environment, which didn't run via Wine.
I explained that before here: viewtopic.php?p=8955711&#p8955711
I installed the 'demo' version and the Native Access (1) Legacy version to get things activated...
Hmm, maybe I should go to Windows and install the Native Access 2 there in order to download Guitar Rig Pro (if there's a download possible... I guess it will install GR from that application instead of downloading it).

Perhaps I did something wrong in the process there.
I can only try to uninstall/delete all the Guitar Rig stuff on my pc, (and maybe wine/yabridge too), and install all the stuff again from scratch. hmmm but that's my last option...
Ok, the very last option is to run Reaper and Guitar Rig in Windows and test it there, but I'd really love to keep everything from my work in Linux.

[bulevardi]

(will make that kernel switch later today when I'm on that pc and let you know if anything changed)
EDIT: couldn't set or choose another the kernel version

So I didn't make any changes at all... didn't do anything in particular in Windows, I left it as it was.
And when shutting down, I got the Blue Screen with stop code...
Couldn't restart my Windows afterwards, always that blue screen, can't even restart in recovery mode as that's not showing up in the Grub2Win menu. So there my quest ends.
I'm left with Linux and no option to change the kernel, as I cannot run Grub.

[planetearth]

@Bulevardi If I’m not mistaken, you mentioned that you have “NOT” tuned your OS for low latency. I tried to look back through the messages of this thread to confirm this, but couldn’t find it. Is this true, or am I imagining things?

If so, this is where the lion’s share of your performance issues are coming from. The results you are seeing are not typical.

I thought about that too yes.
However, opening my other projects with lots of tracks and effects just plays at it should without issues.
I remember I once had the low-latency as startup... but for some reason it got overridden by an update or so?
But my goal is to set it back to low-latency when I know how.
I see that the low-latency kernel is installed but it's not the 'active' kernel.

When I bought this pc it had windows and I directly tried to make it a dual boot by installing Linux Mint aside. However, there was no boot option at startup. I don't know what it was, but there was something that I couldn't get the grub menu installed for some reason.
It was something with EFI or whatever, there's also no typical blue BIOS menu to access.
The solution back then was that I had to install Grub2Win in Windows and manage to set Linux as first choice.
However, it seems I cannot just change it to the right kernel via a Terminal command or changing some .cfg file.
Ok, while searching for it I found out now with a YT video explaining how to do so, I have to boot Windows again to get in that grub2win menu and add another entry with the right kernel:


(will make that kernel switch later today when I'm on that pc and let you know if anything changed)
EDIT: couldn't set or choose another the kernel version

It won’t explain the memory leak suspicion, but it will explain your poor performance.

Perhaps it's the fact that I was only able to install Guitar Rig by downloading a demo and activate it later... instead of being able to download the Pro version somewhere.
There is no possibility to download the pro version via your account.
You have to install that Native Access 2 environment, which didn't run via Wine.
I explained that before here: viewtopic.php?p=8955711&#p8955711
I installed the 'demo' version and the Native Access (1) Legacy version to get things activated...
Hmm, maybe I should go to Windows and install the Native Access 2 there in order to download Guitar Rig Pro (if there's a download possible... I guess it will install GR from that application instead of downloading it).

Perhaps I did something wrong in the process there.
I can only try to uninstall/delete all the Guitar Rig stuff on my pc, (and maybe wine/yabridge too), and install all the stuff again from scratch. hmmm but that's my last option...
Ok, the very last option is to run Reaper and Guitar Rig in Windows and test it there, but I'd really love to keep everything from my work in Linux.

Wow, so Native Access 2 doesn't work with WINE? I thought I saw some of the hardcore Linux users saying (or, at least, implying) that it did. That's going to be very difficult to get around going forward, because that's what NI wants everyone to use. (Yes, there will probably be ways to work around it, but they will become fewer and harder to do as NI keeps pushing NA2 (or NA3) as the "official" way to download, install, and activate libraries.

I could see where a "demo" version of GR7 could have memory leaks and other bugs. If it hasn't been updated since you installed and activated the demo, you might find that's all you need.

Unfortunately, when it comes to grub, that's pretty much always a PITA. It can get screwed up for no reason, or it can get screwed up due to Windows or Linux updates. Either way, it's usually able to be fixed, but not always. There are commands you can run to "reset grub", and there are utilities you can install that will allow you to backup and restore grub or edit grub settings that are otherwise ridiculously arcane. But you can change the color and size of the text to make it easier to read, for example.

Depending upon which UEFI/BIOS you have, you usually have to disable the "Secure Boot" option and/or enable the "legacy boot" option in the UEFI/BIOS. This is usually recommended when dual-booting. Your UEFI/BIOS will warn you that disabling "Secure Boot" is not a good idea, and that it may affect your ability to boot into Windows. And it may. But if you know what you're doing and why you're doing it, you can disable it and still boot into Windows and/or Linux—once you get grub fixed.

Steve

[bulevardi]

Wow, so Native Access 2 doesn't work with WINE? I thought I saw some of the hardcore Linux users saying (or, at least, implying) that it did. That's going to be very difficult to get around going forward, because that's what NI wants everyone to use. (Yes, there will probably be ways to work around it, but they will become fewer and harder to do as NI keeps pushing NA2 (or NA3) as the "official" way to download, install, and activate libraries.

I could see where a "demo" version of GR7 could have memory leaks and other bugs. If it hasn't been updated since you installed and activated the demo, you might find that's all you need.

So I uninstalled and deleted all the stuff I had on my computer from Native Instruments, in order to reïnstall it.
Perhaps a new install will be the stable version.

Tried again with Native Access 2: still no possibility. The program installs and runs, but then gives an error that some dependencies need to be installed.

Tried again with the older Native Access 1 Legacy. (the trick that worked last month)
The program runs and shows my account with all the details and 'Guitar Rig 7 Pro' status: 'Repair'. When trying to 'fix' it in order to download/install, it gives the error that "a broken installation has been noticed" and I have to "relocate" the folder where I want to install.
No matter what folder I select, anywhere on my disk, it gives an error: "The path is invalid".
So there it stops ... my GR adventure ends here I guess.

I don't know if I even will get in touch with the support team, as I noticed there's no life on their community. No team member ever responded to my topics and questions in the past month.

I think I'll decide one of the next days to request a transfer ID to sell my license to someone who can use it on Win/Mac...

[BertKoor]

> some dependencies need to be installed.

Did it state which? Did you try to install the missing dependencies?

[bulevardi]

> some dependencies need to be installed.

Did it state which? Did you try to install the missing dependencies?

It didn't state which, no. It didn't allow me to do anything.
The only thing I could do was closing the window.
There was no option to install anything else.

Anyway, I finally decided to contact the support on their public community:
https://community.native-instruments.co ... -1-legacy/

Let's see how long it takes and if there is a solution after all.

[planetearth]

Wow, so Native Access 2 doesn't work with WINE? I thought I saw some of the hardcore Linux users saying (or, at least, implying) that it did. That's going to be very difficult to get around going forward, because that's what NI wants everyone to use. (Yes, there will probably be ways to work around it, but they will become fewer and harder to do as NI keeps pushing NA2 (or NA3) as the "official" way to download, install, and activate libraries.

I could see where a "demo" version of GR7 could have memory leaks and other bugs. If it hasn't been updated since you installed and activated the demo, you might find that's all you need.

So I uninstalled and deleted all the stuff I had on my computer from Native Instruments, in order to reïnstall it.
Perhaps a new install will be the stable version.

Tried again with Native Access 2: still no possibility. The program installs and runs, but then gives an error that some dependencies need to be installed.

Tried again with the older Native Access 1 Legacy. (the trick that worked last month)
The program runs and shows my account with all the details and 'Guitar Rig 7 Pro' status: 'Repair'. When trying to 'fix' it in order to download/install, it gives the error that "a broken installation has been noticed" and I have to "relocate" the folder where I want to install.
No matter what folder I select, anywhere on my disk, it gives an error: "The path is invalid".
So there it stops ... my GR adventure ends here I guess.

I don't know if I even will get in touch with the support team, as I noticed there's no life on their community. No team member ever responded to my topics and questions in the past month.

I think I'll decide one of the next days to request a transfer ID to sell my license to someone who can use it on Win/Mac...

Unfortunately, NI's NA2 isn't very flexible or understanding if you want to change the default path for plug-ins, or, really, if you deviate from their "norm" in any way. If you're running it under WINE, it could be that you don't have write permission to whichever folder you're trying to use—though that shouldn't be an issue and WINE should take care of that for you.

Before you give up entirely on Linux (or on GR7), you might want to give this forum a shot: https://linuxmusicians.com/index.php. It's an entire forum dedicated to fixing the kinds of problems you're having, and it's very active. There are specific threads for optimizing your Linux system for audio and running non-Linux software under WINE. There's a similar thread on reddit, and a couple of threads on GearSpace. But Linuxmusicians.com is an entire forum, and you'll have a much better chance of getting your specific issues addressed.

Steve

[havran]

Although I would much rather switch completely to Linux, in my case I feel like I wasted a year trying to make the switch, when it would have been easier to just hold my nose, be patient, and stick with Windows 10 until next October (when security updates end) and reassess the situation then.

But that absolutely had to do with my wanting to run some Windows-native apps and plugins (in the graphics domain as well as music) on Linux.

Linux for desktop is great these days for most use-cases, including music-making and graphics, especially if one sticks with Linux-native apps and plugins.

On Linux, it's better to stick with a Linux-native DAW/host/sequencer. The steps to optimize a Linux system for low-latency operation are really very few, and are covered elsewhere.

Sure, a lot of Windows-native plugins can be made to work well through WINE with yabridge (and yabridge has a Discord with a good accumulation of searchable info, in case that hasn't already been mentioned), but iLok is still not supported on Linux, and (IMPORTANTLY) there is still additional time and effort and mental overhead involved in getting Windows plugins to work on Linux (although of course it can be satisfying to learn new skills and expand one's knowledge) -- which means all of that is a diversion/side-tracking/splitting-of-attention/hindrance.

So one question is: How much would someone be willing to redivide their attentional pie to make the switch, if there are Windows apps or plugins that they want to keep using?

I don't mean to say that Linux is a bad choice for music-makers (or other art-makers) -- it's a great choice in general! However, there might be some decisions and/or sacrifices to be made if one has already made some investment in Windows apps and plugins.

[audiojunkie]

These facts (and their options) remain:

1. Native Apps are the best first choice when using Linux -- ALWAYS
2. Linux is an awesome operating system that works great these days for those who are willing to put in the work learning it.
3. As awesome as Linux is, there are some big holes/gaps in what is available natively on Linux--especially when it comes to acoustic/real libraries.
4. To get around those holes (or gaps) in what audio software is available, there are some options:
4A. Learn to deal with not using the software that isn't available, and use what IS available natively in Linux.
4B. Find alternatives from the Windows realm and use alternatives that are known to work properly and easily in WINE.
4C. Go the virtual machine route with an actual copy of Windows on the same machine as Linux using one of the following options:
4C1. Audiogridder
4C2. Blue Cat Audio's Patchworks & Connector
4C3. Using an AES67 compatible virtual audio to network sound card in Windows and patch in to the AES67 compatible Pipewire input.
4D. Use an additional Windows computer, using one of the following connection methods:
4D1. Audiogridder
4D2. Blue Cat Audio's Patchworks & Connector
4D3. Using an 4in/4out + midi audio interface on both your Linux and your additional Windows machine like you would as if it were an external hardware synth or sampler.
5E. Go back to using Windows for audio work. This can be through dual booting or using Windows exclusively.


As for me personally, I accept that there are gaps in things that I want and need. I especially want high quality guitars of all types: Acoustic, electric, six string, twelve string, all sorts of different models and pickups, including bass guitars. The quality of what I want simply doesn't exist on Linux. I have the best of what is available to my knowledge, which includes some average Decent Sampler libraries in Decent Sampler format. I also have some average libraries in SFZ format that can be used in Sfizz or LinuxSampler, but I prefer to have an interface on my libraries that I can configure, so Decent Sampler is currently the best that Linux has for libraries as far as interfaces go.

The next level up in instrument quality is SFZ files and Sforzando. There is no native version of Sforzando, so it has to be used with WINE and yabridge. The best SFZ libraries for guitar come from Karoryfer and Unreal's guitars, and the legacy Shreddage guitar and bass SFZ packages which I purchased years ago.

Then next level up from that involves using actual virtual guitar plugins. I, personally, have ruled out anything to do with Native Instruments, specifically because of the Native Access 2 incompatibilities, so that leaves me with non-native access libraries such as Musiclab's Real guitar series, Toontrack's bass libraries, Pfundstein's bass libraries, AmpleSound's guitar libraries, and maybe.....just maybe Sound Magic's libraries. There are likely more that don't use Native Access, but by far, the lion's share of guitar libraries are Kontakt based, unfortunately. Luckily, I like a lot of what I hear from these libraries, and if they work sufficiently, I'll be just fine. I've already done some initial research, and most of these that I listed supposedly work without problems on Linux in WINE. I'll have to do more research before I do any purchasing.

If using alternatives don't work, then I have to consider my other options from the outline of options I listed above. I have no intention of going back to windows, although I have considered using a second computer with Windows on it and using it like an external piece of hardware equipment -- like a sampler, a rompler, or a synth. My Linux laptop is limited in performance CPU/RAM power anyway, so an external piece of equipment would offload some of that processor usage. But then again, that takes away from my mobility of using my laptop for music making. I am really hoping it doesn't come to that......

But as you can see. There are some compromises and decisions that have to be made, and if a particular piece of software doesn't exist natively in Linux, and it doesn't run well in WINE, there are some tough decisions to be made. Some people are better off sticking with Windows in some cases. Things are getting better for Linux all the time, and doors are opening left and right constantly in front of our eyes, but for some people, this is the reality, if they are unable to find an alternative software package for the one that they really want to use from the Windows world. I don't mean to dissuade anyone from Linux. And I really hope that alternatives can be found for what doesn't exist natively. But this is what it comes down to in the Linux world.

EDIT: Another thing I have to keep in mind is that for some of these plugins that I want, I will not be able to escape the distasteful copy protection that comes with the packages. I console myself that "most" of my gear is serial or keyfile. Sometimes compromises have to be made.....