Bitwig 5 vs Cubase 13 for mixing small Ableton projects?

[Ou_Tis]

I switched from Bitwig to Ableton because Bitwig's controller script for the Rise 2 doesn't record MPE pitchbend accurately; I also have Cubase 12 professional but its MPE pitchbend editor is horrible (no node based editing, and you have to click on each note individually to see the associated MPE data). So I switched to Ableton. But Ableton lacks the ability to deactivate individual plugins within a track, adding massive amounts of latency when A/Bing multiple plugins, and workarounds I'm aware of (saving A and B as separate presets) are too time-consuming. So I've been recording/producing in Ableton and mixing in Bitwig 4.4.10. But since Bitwig now has a limited time Filterscape offer and Cubase 13 upgrades are on sale I'm wondering whether I should register my unused Bitwig upgrade plan, which would give me plugin undo among other improvements, or upgrade to Cubase 13 and commit to learning that for mixing. For mixing a large number of tracks Cubase seems to have the clear advantage, but I've been doing relatively small projects recently with only 5 to 20 tracks. I only use third-party plugins, with the exception of Ableton's Utility and Bitwig's Tool for gain.

Bitwig 5's advantages for mixing projects from Ableton:

Import some data directly from Ableton - works for some plugins but not others (VST2 apparently more likely to work? or works all the time?), works for midi but not MPE data

Unlimited number of insert plugins on tracks, while Cubase is limited to 16 inserts per track; this is convenient for A/Bing a large number of different plugins

More intuitive interface, gui I strongly prefer over Cubase, fewer menus and irrational restrictions on what can go where, apparently Cubase 13 has made the menu issue even worse by "streamlining" the gui

Modulate anything with anything else

I'm much more familiar with it and I find it much faster to use

MSEG (minor advantage since I already have plenty of third-party plugins like Duck, Timeshaper, Stutter Edit 2, etc.; but I usually like drawing in different curves to match the specific section rather than triggering the same envelope, or a randomized version of the same envelope, each time---though I could record the curves as automation and then tweak them, drag and drop to automation would be much better)

CLAP

Grid stuff maybe? I hate the grid

Weird complicated sound design

I already have an unused Bitwig upgrade plan

Cubase advantages for mixing:

Mix snapshots for quick A/Bing (downside: limited to 10 per project)

Deactivate/reactivate customizable groups of plugins across multiple tracks for A/Bing

Add same plugin to many different tracks

Better automation editing

Better audio editing

More tempo editing options

Cue mixes for fast A/B referencing (lets you switch back and forth during playback, so you can compare with reference track)

Control room separate volume controls (turn up monitoring volume of track or master within control room without changing fader levels for actual mix)

Logical editor, other customization

more CPU efficiency options, for large projects may be more CPU efficient but that probably won't be an issue for me

Mixing plugins - not going to use these unless CPU becomes an issue, I definitely don't prefer them over the high-end third-party plugins I have (Acustica, DMG Audio, etc.); I also have Melodyne Studio, etc. for audio correction

Apparently if you memorize a lot of key commands it can actually be fast and efficient; but a large part of my free time is devoted to courses on advanced mathematics which require a lot of memorization, as does learning new music, so having to memorize a ton of crap just to use the DAW efficiently seems like a major negative.

[Ou_Tis]

I just went through and tested Ableton-to-Bitwig conversion for about 20 of my most used third-party plugins (effects, etc.), all VST3. Automation curves in Ableton get converted to straight lines in Bitwig, but other than that plugin settings seem to copy over without issue. Seems okay for rough fx mix and some straight line automation for recording and arranging audio and midi in Ableton, then converting in Bitwig for fine-tuning and A/B/C/.../-ing... technically it's not "just mixing" I'm doing in Bitwig but additional production in terms of effects and sound design. Then again IDK if the automation in Cubase is really so much better than Bitwig that loading the pre-fx stems in Cubase and recreating the effects chains from Ableton would save me time and be more ergonomical than loading the Ableton project into Bitwig... of course I could just export the Ableton stems with the effects and then add more in Cubase, but I'd prefer to have the option to tweak them more.

Maybe Cubase after Bitwig for adding final touches to the stems, particularly saturators that are supposed to have a distinct instance on each track, since that's much faster to do and to A/B in Cubase. Maybe also for comparing to reference tracks in control room. But I don't think Cubase 13 would be particularly helpful for that since I already have 12. It seems like the streamlining of the gui in 13 has made the proliferation of menus (which I really hate) and practical necessity of relying on idiosyncratic key commands (most of which I haven't yet memorized) worse.

[EnGee]

Why you don't render to wav files in Ableton then bring the stems into Cubase? You can add the plugins in Cubase for mixing. I would do that if I were you. Cubase is definitely better for mixing than both Live and Bitwig!

[Ou_Tis]

Another positive for Cubase, apparent negative for Bitwig: Cubase gives the option to record automation without data reduction (by going to going to Project -> Automation panel -> change Settings Reduction Level to 0), so the recorded automation is much more fine-grained. With Bitwig you're apparently stuck with the default, which simplifies recorded automation to a relatively small number of line segments connected by nodes. So for example automation recorded from my external controller's faders is much closer to what I was actually doing in Cubase---if I want it to be. Can also adjust the Reduction Level higher if I want to make it easier to do node-based editing later (since high reduction level generally = fewer nodes).

[BarkingAudio]

If you're already more comfortable and faster with Bitwig, and the projects you're working on are relatively small (5–20 tracks), sticking with Bitwig might make more sense, especially since you already have an unused upgrade plan. The plugin undo feature could be really useful, and Bitwig's flexibility with modulation and unlimited inserts seems to suit your workflow better for A/Bing multiple plugins.

On the other hand, if you're really missing some of Cubase's mixing features—like mix snapshots, deactivating plugin groups, and the control room options for referencing—it might be worth considering the upgrade, especially if you plan on working with larger projects in the future. But if memorizing a lot of key commands in Cubase is a downside for you, and you're not planning to scale up to much larger projects anytime soon, it feels like Bitwig is still the better choice for your current needs.

Since you’re already comfortable with a dual DAW setup (Ableton for production, Bitwig for mixing), continuing with that and upgrading Bitwig could be the smoothest path. Only go for Cubase if the specific mixing features would save you significant time or frustration in the long run.

[_leras]

For small projects I think Bitwig would be more productive. I think the grouping, and trying a/b FX etc would be much quickly in Bitwig.

5.2 also has auto gain compensation for plug in groups so you can easily account for volume changes.

If you were mixing really large projects and importing audio and using mixing templates maybe then Cubase would be better. If editing multi track live recordings also Cubase has some advantages.

But if just loading up Ableton projects I think Bitwig may just be simpler.