One Synth Challenge #187: ExtraBold by Nakst (Jasinski Wins!)

[Taron]

I love using TDR-Nova on the master and almost always use the HP for the super sub clipping, which of course doesn't affect the sound, really. But every now and then I use one, too. Especially for hihats and cymbals. It's such nonsense to beat each other up over these things.

Honestly, I'm a little annoyed, because of some of the high-horse bulls#$t regarding distortion or the likes, because it used to be such fun to freely toss in Boogex and have a brilliant sounding guitar come out of a synth. But by now it seems like a scary thing to do as the self-appointed OSC-police threatens with a raid, HAHAHA...

I don't think that's what's happening here at all. This is a simple matter of asking about and discussing what the limits are when it comes to filtering sounds. Nobody even questioned uses such as filtering out the super subs. Just whether it is within the rules to filter out the majority of the sound produced by the synth in order to retain just the highest harmonics.

If you have the synth producing a "boop-boop-boop" sound, and you apply effects to it to change this to a "tsh-tsh-tsh" sound, it seems intuitively obvious to me that this renders it unrecognizable as the output of the synth, regardless of what kind of effects were involved. I wasn't the only one to hold this opinion, either. It was news to me that some folks do not share this view, thinking instead that it is merely removing a part of the sound they don't want, equivalent to any more gentle filtering or EQ. Forgive me for expressing my surprise and disagreement.

Nobody's getting beat up, or raided, or whatever other metaphor of oppression you might like to apply. I don't think I've been unreasonable or accusatory. I didn't insist that anyone change their ways, and I didn't see anyone else doing so either. I am strict in how I apply the rules to myself, and permissive in what I accept from others. But when there is such a difference of opinion, I want to know about it, and of course I'm likely to want to express my opinion about it. Is that nonsense or some kind of "high-horse bulls#$t"? It just seems like ordinary discourse to me.

Woops ...I didn't mean to jump on your toes there. I was just reminded of the time when somebody insisted that any distortion would violate the purity of the given synth. Sour reminder of what tamed my joy of going wilder with the arrangement and mixing.

You know you're very dear to me, like almost everybody here and I don't know at all who said what to whom.

[] Peter:H []

Discord drama? Awwww, I'm so glad I don't go there!
...man. We've had some brief discussions on filters in the past and any EQ is in reality a filter. Using it creatively should be fine. I love using TDR-Nova on the master and almost always use the HP for the super sub clipping, which of course doesn't affect the sound, really. But every now and then I use one, too. Especially for hihats and cymbals. It's such nonsense to beat each other up over these things.

Honestly, I'm a little annoyed, because of some of the high-horse bulls#$t regarding distortion or the likes, because it used to be such fun to freely toss in Boogex and have a brilliant sounding guitar come out of a synth. But by now it seems like a scary thing to do as the self-appointed OSC-police threatens with a raid, HAHAHA...

Taron, please... I respect your opinion, but now you're talking without knowing the context. I would be glad to know who this tyrant is, who sets strict rules and sends his police officers to punish dissenters, but alas, these rules were formed before I came here six years ago, so I'm probably already too late.. All this time I thought the OSC community was democratically self-regulating and believed in productive discussions, but now I'm afraid of them. Is it forbidden for OSCer to know what he can be disqualified for? A lot of opinions sounded literally like: "Do it any way you want, just have fun!", but this clearly does not mean that I can take distortion or chorus full 11.

Speaking only for myself, as a participant in that discussion, I just wanted to find out my own boundaries of what is allowed in the OSC, but some considered this an encroachment on their boundaries, which were located elsewhere.

And I, like everyone else, would like Milkster not to leave. It's just that now I'm discouraged by this reaction to people discussing the rules.

Seems like a legit discussion to me, that hit Milksters on the wrong foot ... sad, I can feel it. discussion on the internet for a topic I'm invested in, sometimes get me emotionaly more involved than it is good for me - only talking about my personal experience because there might be hope: After things got heated and emotions boiling over, I can calm down and return to what I love after a little cool down period. So hope to see you again soon, Milkster!!!

What I would avoid is phrases like "High horse BS". I'm with frog an IV. I think it's not respectful to the legit discussion or questions or peoples comments about the rules.

The rules is actually the challenge, because they are not 100% specific about every little detail and these "blind spots" leave room a.) for interpretation on the plugin user side and b.) for astonishment on the side of people reading plugin lists as provided by the submissions or c.) raise questions, when people talk about their best practices in mixing&mastering, which people think could be outside of the rulez
I think the OSC community cannot solve these challenges with the rulez in a way, that will keep the OSC the way it is: It's a challenge with low entry barrier. It has rulez to try to build a common ground, at the same time leaves enough room to "not feel restricted all time during the creative process". Rulez which want to rule every little aspect would fend off people.

I myself use EQ low/high cuts almost everywhere. Most of the time to get frequency separation of tracks. On the other hand sometimes it's really a must to cut because plugins produce harsh high freq ear piercing noise or aliasing.
I myself sometimes use a compressor with fast attack and release, which might add distortion to certain frequencies. I listen to the output of the compressor, and avoid clearly audible distortion ... but anything below 12ms attack can modify a 80hz wave considerably...
And tha example shows the challenge of the "blind spots" - we cannot avoid "changing the sound" of the plugin in certain ways when plugins are allowed...

Anyways ... another chapter of the endless rule saga. sade times that we lost Milkster to this unsolvable riddle.

[Taron]

What I would avoid is phrases like "High horse BS". I'm with frog an IV. I think it's not respectful to the legit discussion or questions or peoples comments about the rules.

Again, I was referring to an old discussion years ago on staying strictly pure to a synth without any distortion. At that time I loved using "Boogex" on leads or to simulate proper distorted guitars. After that discussion I simply never used it again and it did take a sense of freedom away that I know never violated any rules, but pushed forward great music.

Read my post above for the rest I would've said to you, too.

[MilksterX]

Ok frogsinpants & silverpants sorry for over-reacting. My biggest issue was simply this: Whenever I try and help someone with sound design it's always challenged with comments or thread discussions that seem to become arguments or seem hostile in nature. I'm just explaining if you want to do x or y this is how I would approach it with this synth.
But the things I've learnt in OSC: layering many instances. Offsetting / adding latency or volume shaping sound tails I would consider mixing processes that do always go beyond what the synth is capable of but which are required to make those sounds more acceptable to a listener and to not cause problems with the mix.

So Eq'ing a particular layer with a highpass roll off (im talking a 0.6 Q curve here) I would consider necessary to avoid buildup of low frequencies.

The initial example MP3 file you provided of what you thought I was advocating was not that. Taken out of context from the term id said and was actually a really aggressive filter sound with resonance.

This example was then followed with several pages worth of people agreeing that was definitely outside the rules

So now you can see why I would just want to chuck in the towel and lose the plot.

It was like any time I tried to help it just backfires .

So apologies again for the harsh words that didn't help I was simply overreacting and felt unable to defend myself in that situation.

[MilksterX]

Also most ironically i didnt even like the metallic sound I was trying to help create with this synth and creating a more metallic cymbal. I would have gone for the OSC triangle filter mod instead. As the filter resonance acts like a bandpass the more it was turned up - but this is completely the wrong thread to discuss that or we will confuse nakst

[Taron]

Also most ironically i didnt even like the metallic sound I was trying to help create with this synth and creating a more metallic cymbal. I would have gone for the OSC triangle filter mod instead. As the filter resonance acts like a bandpass the more it was turned up - but this is completely the wrong thread to discuss that or we will confuse nakst

Certainly sounds like a far more productive topic! Those are fun!

[The Sound Of Merlin]

What might be a good idea is if we forget the rules and agree on a very simple set of limits: We all use the same DAW and otherwise only free plugins including phasers, chorus and distortion (just all free available plugins) and we don't just upload an MP3 to SoundCloud but also the project file. As a DAW, we can choose Reaper, for example, which is basically free for life because it continues to function after the trial period. This way, we are sure that maximum creativity and artistic freedom is guaranteed while everyone has exactly the same possibilities. Furthermore, sharing project files is the perfect way to learn from each other and to teach each other.

For this Nakst ExtraBold challenge, I had to learn how to produce a full song in Reaper. As an inveterate Cubase user, I was dreading this but after 1 day I felt completely at ease with Reaper.

I would also like to add that I used to participate in challenges at Reason Station where MP3 files were not shared but the Reason Project Files. RS had been a rock-solid and fun community for years where I learned a lot and made friends who are still dear friends now after more than 20 years. Oh... and there were discussions and fights and trolls, tragedies, threats etc Like everywhere but here of course.

I sympathise with Milkster who at some point has had enough and wants to call it quits. Subsequently, it is not about whether another person's feelings and irritations are justified but about the willingness to we respect each other's boundaries and act accordingly. I really regret it if he would no longer be there. I have been participating in OSC for almost 3 years now and I am always curious about his contributions which are always very good and often inspiring.

[Taron]

Ohohoho, the same DAW, haha, yeah, nah, but seriously, I thought about suggesting a round where we all would have to share the project file, too. That would be a brilliant way to learn from each other and even out the technicalities. I really think it should be about the music, an intimate layer of our ideals, and the best way we get to share them. And exchanging tricks of the trade is a fantastic gift idea.

Once projects are shared, people can then discover the DAW that the musician has used, if it's something they don't use. It would increase the aspect of discovery that makes the OSC so attractive and ordinarily is mostly only about synths.

I'd vote "yes" to sharing projects!

[] Peter:H []

Ok frogsinpants & silverpants sorry for over-reacting. My biggest issue was simply this: Whenever I try and help someone with sound design it's always challenged with comments or thread discussions that seem to become arguments or seem hostile in nature. I'm just explaining if you want to do x or y this is how I would approach it with this synth.
But the things I've learnt in OSC: layering many instances. Offsetting / adding latency or volume shaping sound tails I would consider mixing processes that do always go beyond what the synth is capable of but which are required to make those sounds more acceptable to a listener and to not cause problems with the mix.

So Eq'ing a particular layer with a highpass roll off (im talking a 0.6 Q curve here) I would consider necessary to avoid buildup of low frequencies.

The initial example MP3 file you provided of what you thought I was advocating was not that. Taken out of context from the term id said and was actually a really aggressive filter sound with resonance.

This example was then followed with several pages worth of people agreeing that was definitely outside the rules

So now you can see why I would just want to chuck in the towel and lose the plot.

It was like any time I tried to help it just backfires .

So apologies again for the harsh words that didn't help I was simply overreacting and felt unable to defend myself in that situation.

Hm ... from what you explain it sounds like a series of missundertandings. Nothing unusual in "the internet" these days. I think sometimes you can only agree to disagree. A consens to everybody.

[] Peter:H []

What I would avoid is phrases like "High horse BS". I'm with frog an IV. I think it's not respectful to the legit discussion or questions or peoples comments about the rules.

Again, I was referring to an old discussion years ago on staying strictly pure to a synth without any distortion. At that time I loved using "Boogex" on leads or to simulate proper distorted guitars. After that discussion I simply never used it again and it did take a sense of freedom away that I know never violated any rules, but pushed forward great music.

Read my post above for the rest I would've said to you, too.

Nothing mentioned about a years old discussion. Sorry. And I think frog and IV read it the same way, I did.

[Taron]

Peter, I hope you've read it now. Consider helping to move on, will ya!?

[3lu5iv3]

voted.

[silverpants]

Ok frogsinpants & silverpants sorry for over-reacting. My biggest issue was simply this: Whenever I try and help someone with sound design it's always challenged with comments or thread discussions that seem to become arguments or seem hostile in nature. I'm just explaining if you want to do x or y this is how I would approach it with this synth.
But the things I've learnt in OSC: layering many instances. Offsetting / adding latency or volume shaping sound tails I would consider mixing processes that do always go beyond what the synth is capable of but which are required to make those sounds more acceptable to a listener and to not cause problems with the mix.

So Eq'ing a particular layer with a highpass roll off (im talking a 0.6 Q curve here) I would consider necessary to avoid buildup of low frequencies.

The initial example MP3 file you provided of what you thought I was advocating was not that. Taken out of context from the term id said and was actually a really aggressive filter sound with resonance.

This example was then followed with several pages worth of people agreeing that was definitely outside the rules

So now you can see why I would just want to chuck in the towel and lose the plot.

It was like any time I tried to help it just backfires .

So apologies again for the harsh words that didn't help I was simply overreacting and felt unable to defend myself in that situation.

So glad you're back here talking <3
Personally I think it's much more important for you to be back in the club than work out what is the maximum khz a HPF can be set to.
The rules are a good framework for a successful music club - but it does say use judgment - and that allows a lot of latitude.
I worry sometimes that I've used WAY too much reverb to alter the nature of the synth (my song The End Is Not The End sounded like a cheap Casio keyboard until I added loads of Supermassive!) - but everyone seems to liberally chuck tons of reverb about - so I go with the flow. I think there is a wisdom of the crowds here.
Maybe a good place for a dispassionate rule discussion would be in the open on the KVR OSC general thread?
In my 32 rounds of OSC it's never occured to me that anyone was cheating. Only one exception being a newcomer possibly using drum samples.
A Frogs says - I think we all have our own way we like to interpret the rules - but we don't judge others for how they operate.
Really hope you jump back in and no hard feelings.

[empphryio]

Yes glad to see you talking Milkster. I hope we all can just forget about it and move on. Just a bit of internet miscommunication. Hope to hear more great music from you.

[empphryio]

...also everyone learning Reaper is a splendid idea. The english of DAWs.