Thanks for your inputs. For me to copy is just a starting point and then try to tweak it, also the order. I did some experiments with soothe2 yesterday (at the beginning of the chain), used it over the 200-1.2K range instead of my dynamic EQ. At a gainreduction of max. 6dB (which I did with my Dyn EQ before), some words become much louder than others, at the end it was less balanced than with my Dyn EQ. Freq. sounded not bad but some words stucked out. Strange thing. I think it can be interesting but perhaps more over the harsh freq range? Or at lower f at lower levels (max. 3dB?)
I used Ozone (9?) also for mastering, but remarked the result was much worse than when I did the chain by myself, with some ideas from others.
Have to try Nectar... Will be interesting what comes up with new AI plugins.
Vocal Chain: Where Soothe2/RVox?
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- KVRian
- 887 posts since 22 Jan, 2022
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- KVRian
- 887 posts since 22 Jan, 2022
..
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- KVRian
- 545 posts since 24 Feb, 2008 from Germany
It is most probably not louder, but clearer since you removed the mud that formerly covered the vocals.
Mh, i think you first should understand what is necessary to mix a vocal. And what your goal is. I could bet you improved the sound of your vocals with Soothe2, but felt it sounds worse now. Since you are used to your old sound.
It's not about the tools. It's about the job. You can mix the whole vocals with just an eq and a compressor / limiter. What you did with Soothe2 can also be done by a multibandeq. But Soothe2 is better at it.
First you want to clean up the mud. Then you want to remove boxiness. The next problem is the dominant disturbing frequencies that lets your vocal sound whistling or screaming or harsh. The human head anatomy adds its bits with some unwanted swing frequencies. I have one of these frequencies at around 3400 khz. And it lets my voice sound very unpleasant and whistling. Deessing is a vital chapter. And adding some icing and glitter in the upper range by lifting up everything over 8-10 k a bit for example. An exciter can also help. Mouth clicks makes denoising necessary sometimes. And then there is dynamics. Which requires limiter to make the parts that are too loud a bit quieter. Some also uses a vocal rider to make the quieter parts a bit louder. Which i am no friend of, it makes most of the times the wrong parts louder. And a few more things that i have surely forgotten.
This all is already hard to adjust when you know where the problems are. Mixing vocals is hard. But mission impossible when you simply copy over a chain with unknown tools and hope to adjust it to your needs. That's not how it works. You will usually make it worse then. You play lottery, and the chance that you hit the right values will be zero. Because all values have to match. That's what billinder33 wanted to express from what i understand. You need to learn the problems, one by one, and the tools to solve this problems. And in best case you need do it a few thousand times until you will get at least decent at mixing vocals. But which bedroom producer mixes vocals a few thousand times?
This is why i have thrown in Nectar here. Nectar will adjust everything for you. What's left for you is the fine tuning. Decisions if you want more or fewer deessing or more or fewer brightness. Some final details, not the whole story. And for me it's a godsent. Since even after years and knowing all the techniques and problems i am still in trouble to mix a vocal in a really decent way.
Don't make your life too hard. Make some songs instead
Mh, i think you first should understand what is necessary to mix a vocal. And what your goal is. I could bet you improved the sound of your vocals with Soothe2, but felt it sounds worse now. Since you are used to your old sound.
It's not about the tools. It's about the job. You can mix the whole vocals with just an eq and a compressor / limiter. What you did with Soothe2 can also be done by a multibandeq. But Soothe2 is better at it.
First you want to clean up the mud. Then you want to remove boxiness. The next problem is the dominant disturbing frequencies that lets your vocal sound whistling or screaming or harsh. The human head anatomy adds its bits with some unwanted swing frequencies. I have one of these frequencies at around 3400 khz. And it lets my voice sound very unpleasant and whistling. Deessing is a vital chapter. And adding some icing and glitter in the upper range by lifting up everything over 8-10 k a bit for example. An exciter can also help. Mouth clicks makes denoising necessary sometimes. And then there is dynamics. Which requires limiter to make the parts that are too loud a bit quieter. Some also uses a vocal rider to make the quieter parts a bit louder. Which i am no friend of, it makes most of the times the wrong parts louder. And a few more things that i have surely forgotten.
This all is already hard to adjust when you know where the problems are. Mixing vocals is hard. But mission impossible when you simply copy over a chain with unknown tools and hope to adjust it to your needs. That's not how it works. You will usually make it worse then. You play lottery, and the chance that you hit the right values will be zero. Because all values have to match. That's what billinder33 wanted to express from what i understand. You need to learn the problems, one by one, and the tools to solve this problems. And in best case you need do it a few thousand times until you will get at least decent at mixing vocals. But which bedroom producer mixes vocals a few thousand times?
This is why i have thrown in Nectar here. Nectar will adjust everything for you. What's left for you is the fine tuning. Decisions if you want more or fewer deessing or more or fewer brightness. Some final details, not the whole story. And for me it's a godsent. Since even after years and knowing all the techniques and problems i am still in trouble to mix a vocal in a really decent way.
Don't make your life too hard. Make some songs instead
Last edited by Tiles on Mon Oct 21, 2024 6:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
“The biggest crime of a musician is to play notes instead of making music.”
Isaac Stern
Isaac Stern
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The Main Event The Main Event https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=284544
- KVRist
- 170 posts since 20 Jul, 2012
Just to add something important regarding soothe2: overusing it (6db GR like you said) is way too much. These "resonant suppressors" work best when used carefully (!) and wise, and not just automatic over the whole frequency range. You will probably make it worse. Remember that resonances are a big part of what makes character and tone. Same goes for a snare drum for example. I saw many youtubers cutting out the resonant frequencies in a snare, but most of the time, thats what you want to hear in a full mix, its what makes it sing. So dont overdue that. Remember that many years ago, when the best singers of our time recorded their stuff, there was no soothe etc. available and it still sounded absolutely great and real. Its kind of a trend which should not be a standard in every vocal chain. I actually very rarely use soothe on a vocal. Only if i identify a problem frequency that i dont want to remove with a static eq, which is rare!
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 71 posts since 2 Jan, 2017
Thanks for your inputs. I tried nectar yesterday, I was quite impressed. I don't work on a mix in the moment, just experimenting with the vocals itself (I know that's not what you should do for the endresult, but for fixing resonances, I think, it's the easiest way). I tried the idea of using the ff Q3 with soloing bands and reduce "resonances" between 100-1K. Worked already quite good. I would say as good as nectar. I also tried nectar with and without an eq before, to see what it does. 1st eq: HP + always -2dB bells at frequencies (that changes depending material). The 2nd EQ is different, but for my material it was always a wide dip in the lower mids to make it brighter (I think it makes more sense to do it in context of the mix). At the input of nectar, I think, there's something like a vocal rider. But as tiles wrote, the problem occurs, that quieter parts became too loud. I do this manually in the waveform. I was also never a fan of vocal rider.
For me nectar is quite good, also for learning.
What "no one" tells you: You should always have e peak at 440Hz when a singer is singing an a1. The problem is, if this peak is too high in context of the other tones. So from this approach, I was thinking about, how much sense an EQ in which the bell-frequency follows the peak (like possible in nectar or vocal EQ Antares(?) makes sense at all. Room frequencies are fix, also the problematic frequencies of the mic (perhaps soundpressure dependent?). So what's the sense of a frequency following vocal EQ? Resonances in the singer's mouth?
@"The Main Event": That they often cut resonances too much on youtube, was also my observation. Or sometimes where's not necessary at all.
For me nectar is quite good, also for learning.
What "no one" tells you: You should always have e peak at 440Hz when a singer is singing an a1. The problem is, if this peak is too high in context of the other tones. So from this approach, I was thinking about, how much sense an EQ in which the bell-frequency follows the peak (like possible in nectar or vocal EQ Antares(?) makes sense at all. Room frequencies are fix, also the problematic frequencies of the mic (perhaps soundpressure dependent?). So what's the sense of a frequency following vocal EQ? Resonances in the singer's mouth?
@"The Main Event": That they often cut resonances too much on youtube, was also my observation. Or sometimes where's not necessary at all.
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- KVRian
- 545 posts since 24 Feb, 2008 from Germany
I see you start to get somewhere
No, different notes have simply different resonant frequencies. That's why they are so hard to catch with a static eq.So what's the sense of a frequency following vocal EQ? Resonances in the singer's mouth?
“The biggest crime of a musician is to play notes instead of making music.”
Isaac Stern
Isaac Stern
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The Main Event The Main Event https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=284544
- KVRist
- 170 posts since 20 Jul, 2012
Thats what this is for: https://www.scalerplugin.com/scaler-2-eq.html
https://www.soundradix.com/products/surfereq/
https://www.soundradix.com/products/surfereq/
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 71 posts since 2 Jan, 2017
OK, as I've understood, it's more a sound-design tool, to change the general sound of a source. It has nothing to do with resonance correction becauso of mic or room issues, more when you want to change the general timbre of the voice.
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- KVRian
- 887 posts since 22 Jan, 2022
Soothe can work great on synths or samples where the resonances and harmonics can be noticeably excessive and grating. Resonances are sharp frequency notches, so IMO Soothe works best in when the Qs are sharper. That way it whacks the resonances without completely sucking the life out of the source.
TBH, I don't much like it on vocals, because it does have that life-sucking quality. Soft multiband, de-essing, dynamics EQ on a select band or two work way better. Resonances are what gives character to a voice, so not sure why you'd want to beat someone's unique sonic fingerprint out of their voice. Too many pop, rap, and country vocals already sound the same as is.
TBH, I don't much like it on vocals, because it does have that life-sucking quality. Soft multiband, de-essing, dynamics EQ on a select band or two work way better. Resonances are what gives character to a voice, so not sure why you'd want to beat someone's unique sonic fingerprint out of their voice. Too many pop, rap, and country vocals already sound the same as is.