Roland Cloud

[Jon at Roland]

Earth Piano on sale for $49.99

“Through November 30, 2024, a Lifetime Key can be purchased for a special introductory price of $49.99, an 80 percent savings compared with the regular price of $249.99.“

Hello good people of KVR! EARTH Piano is now available for purchase as a Lifetime Key. We wanted to offer something for those of you who don't want a membership and have been waiting patiently to give it a try.

Despite what is being said on this forum, this is not a desperate attempt to save a failing instrument seeing as how it wasn't even on sale until yesterday! We constantly get requests (including from people in the KVR community) to offer more discounts. So here is one for you all and it is indeed a very good discount indeed. Thanks!

[Brandon Ryan]

What's the catch it's not like Roland to do any discounts let alone a heavy discount like this ?

My guess is Earth Piano has been a total flop. If you go to YouTube and do a search for it, there seems to be only Roland promo videos, and some random guy making a ton of minute long videos demoing factory patches that nobody has watched

I can't see anyone buying it even for $49

It literally became available for sale yesterday.

[Brandon Ryan]

Maybe no one was buying what they were selling. I think it was just too high of a price.

It's never been available for sale until yesterday. This is simply special introductory pricing.

[Brandon Ryan]

WHY CAN'T YOU JUST BE HAPPY WITH EARTH PIANO?!?

/s

Don't forget it's not just Earth Piano you also got a Space Echo plugin because that has never been done before by anyone else

Never been done as accurately. Is it the sound or the paint job we should care about most?

[Brandon Ryan]

Galaxias doesn't play well with Studio One at all so I won't be renewing. Graphic size issues.

Hi there. I lead the GALAXAIS project at Roland and am primarily a Studio One user. Working well on my system, so I'm keen to better understand what issues you are seeing so we can take a look. Feel free to post here or PM me. Thanks!

EDIT: I saw you posted a thread on this and replied there.

[Examigan]

Maybe no one was buying what they were selling. I think it was just too high of a price.

It's never been available for sale until yesterday. This is simply special introductory pricing.

Ok you're right, but they should keep the intro price. I don't think anyone would pay the original amount.

[IvyBirds]

WHY CAN'T YOU JUST BE HAPPY WITH EARTH PIANO?!?

/s

Don't forget it's not just Earth Piano you also got a Space Echo plugin because that has never been done before by anyone else

Never been done as accurately. Is it the sound or the paint job we should care about most?

I actually think there are multiple Space Echo and tape delay plugins that are significantly better than the Roland Cloud plugin. I own them

Not sure if you are serious or not , but Hardware Tape echos are pretty simple devices, it's a loop of tape that moved around a few tape heads

When it came to hardware units the build quality, durability and ease of use with physical controls made a big difference

With software that's not an issue. Unless it's tied to the Roland Cloud Manager and then build quality and durability is always called into question

As far as emulating the actual sounds of Roland Space Echo in plugin form my favorite is probably the SSL X-Echo which is currently in sale for 90% off at Sweetwater, coming in a close second is Valhalla delay, for $50 it's a fantastic delay plugin that does a ton of things but the tape modes are incredible, beyond that the Arturia Space Echo sounds great, as does the Cherry Audio, and the IK version

My favorite way to do tape delay is to actually use one of my regular delays with a tape sim before and after you get much more control over the tape sound that way. I have a ton of fantastic tape sims also

[ChamomileShark]

I actually think there are multiple Space Echo and tape delay plugins that are significantly better than the Roland Cloud plugin. I own them

Just checking, do you mean better sounding or more accurate to the hardware? I would think RE-201s are likely to vary a fair bit with different tape ages etc.

I'd hoped that Roland had done a 501(?) the chorus echo rather than just the plain space echo but I suspect I'd be in a minority.

[Brandon Ryan]

WHY CAN'T YOU JUST BE HAPPY WITH EARTH PIANO?!?

/s

Don't forget it's not just Earth Piano you also got a Space Echo plugin because that has never been done before by anyone else

Never been done as accurately. Is it the sound or the paint job we should care about most?

I actually think there are multiple Space Echo and tape delay plugins that are significantly better than the Roland Cloud plugin. I own them

Not sure if you are serious or not , but Hardware Tape echos are pretty simple devices, it's a loop of tape that moved around a few tape heads

When it came to hardware units the build quality, durability and ease of use with physical controls made a big difference

With software that's not an issue. Unless it's tied to the Roland Cloud Manager and then build quality and durability is always called into question

As far as emulating the actual sounds of Roland Space Echo in plugin form my favorite is probably the SSL X-Echo which is currently in sale for 90% off at Sweetwater, coming in a close second is Valhalla delay, for $50 it's a fantastic delay plugin that does a ton of things but the tape modes are incredible, beyond that the Arturia Space Echo sounds great, as does the Cherry Audio, and the IK version

My favorite way to do tape delay is to actually use one of my regular delays with a tape sim before and after you get much more control over the tape sound that way. I have a ton of fantastic tape sims also

Before I rebut , I want to thank you for taking the time to explain your thinking and workflow process in depth in this area.

Perhaps the proverbial goalposts are moving a little here. I was under the impression we were talking about "Space Echo" plugins, not any plug-in influenced by tape.

As someone who has been an avid plug-in enthusiast for the last quarter century, I'm well aware that we are spoiled for choice and that there are a lot of great delays out there. I, too, own many...and far more than I'd ever care to admit. I have also deeply analyzed and compared the available RE-201 Space Echo emulations. To say they all sound good/great ignores the clear fact that they all sound wildly different. So YMMV when it comes to the sound and behavior of an actual RE-201. Without disparaging any other plug-in manufacturer, I maintain that the Roland RE-201 plug-in sounds and behaves the most accurately to the hardware it seeks to emulate. Sure, you can achieve good/great tape echo-inspired sounds that you may or may not actually prefer for a job from other plugins or combinations of plugins. But if we're talking about "Space Echo" emulations, then I don't think you can include plugins that sound completely different or combinations of plug-ins that achieve an adjacent result as part of the argument.

Lastly, to say tape echo units are simple units and therefore easy to emulate, I think, belies the reality. And it's why there are a number of different units that are highly sought-after in hardware and why software emulations have been all over the map with regard to how they sound. And it's also why newly developed analog, hardware-based tape delay units are so expensive. Sure, at its most basic and general, it's a tape going around a tape head. But how many tape heads? What are the mechanism's characteristics? Reel or spool? What are the wow and flutter, noise, and tape wear characteristics? How do they change over time? Is there a reverb integrated? If so, what kind? And what about the preamp characteristics (a huge factor!)? Tape Echo units are the sum of their parts, and some people have an affinity for one implementation over another.

For many Roland Cloud members who may not already have a large collection of plug-ins, it's clearly of value, regardless of whether others have attempted to emulate them or not and at what level of success.

[IvyBirds]

I actually think there are multiple Space Echo and tape delay plugins that are significantly better than the Roland Cloud plugin. I own them

Just checking, do you mean better sounding or more accurate to the hardware? I would think RE-201s are likely to vary a fair bit with different tape ages etc.

I'd hoped that Roland had done a 501(?) the chorus echo rather than just the plain space echo but I suspect I'd be in a minority.

I have owned two different RE-201 units, the first was a 1970s era one, that I had in the 1980s, and the second was from the late 1980s. I owned that one from 1989 until the early 2000s, so I am very familiar with the sound

I have also owned multiple tape delays made by other people and had a tape delay setup for a long time in the late 1980s and early 1990s that was two of the same model of reel to reel machines with a mixer in-between.

The RE-201 was special because it was built like a tank and was very durable for gigging. From a mechanical standpoint it had one recording head and three playback heads with and additional spring reverb tank

One thing about the RE-201 which was why it was so popular was that it was built to be as transparent as possible when it came to the audio signal path and the tape transport system. There was very little noise, there was no mojo in the preamps, and there really no wow or flutter with the tape unless your unit was working incorrectly. The spring reverb was a bit noisy but again nothing really special about it

As a result when it comes to emulating it as a plugin the most important part is the tape simulation part. You want a plugin that does a great job with that and that has additional controls to simulate old worn out tapes, and defective units with bad transports

The thing to remember is in the 1970s and 1980s tape was not unique and we spent all our energy trying to make it not sound like tape. We didn't want hiss, we didn't want wow and flutter. Everything people want with tape in 2024 we didn't want in back then

So it's really not hard to nail the sound of the RE-201 as it didn't actually have a sound outside of the tape itself and then really only if the tape itself was old, or if your particular unit was not functioning properly

That's the reason I like the SSL X-Echo so much as it emulates not only a good tape delay, but also the mojo of SSL preamps and saturation circuits in the signal path

[IvyBirds]

Lastly, to say tape echo units are simple units and therefore easy to emulate, I think, belies the reality. And it's why there are a number of different units that are highly sought-after in hardware and why software emulations have been all over the map with regard to how they sound. And it's also why newly developed analog, hardware-based tape delay units are so expensive. Sure, at its most basic and general, it's a tape going around a tape head. But how many tape heads? What are the mechanism's characteristics? Reel or spool? What are the wow and flutter, noise, and tape wear characteristics? How do they change over time? Is there a reverb integrated? If so, what kind? And what about the preamp characteristics (a huge factor!)? Tape Echo units are the sum of their parts, and some people have an affinity for one implementation over another.

Sounds like you have basically zero experience with the actual hardware units themselves especially the Roland RE-201. What preamp characteristics are you talking about? The RE-201 had very transparent preamps there was no mojo there, there was also no reels or spools, and if your unit was functional there was no perceived wow or flutter either

You had one record head and three playback heads that were fixed, and a variable speed motor

I have owned two different units and spent hundreds if not thousands of hours using them and know how they sound

As for how much new tape delays cost that is not really relevant. The RE-201 was a mass produced device that used many off the shelf parts, tape mechanisms were extremely common and abundant in the 1970s and 1980s as was tape itself

In 2024 actual tape delays are boutique devices built with expensive parts and tape mechanisms and tape heads are not really common and are hard to get, so of course they cost a lot

If you had a properly functioning RE-201, and had a decently new tape and clean heads your RE-201 was as transparent as could be. Pretty much any tape delay plugin can emulate that sound

The reason the RE-201 was so popular was because it was built like a tank, was transparent, and had a spring reverb that guitarists could use if they didn't have one in their amp, but even that spring reverb was pretty generic

Different RE-201 units sounded different because they were in different states of being mechanically functional, had different wear on the playback heads, and had different tapes in them with different levels of wear and tear

Again pretty much any tape plugin can emulate the sound of a properly functioning RE-201with good tape. The differences between them come down to the tape simulation and how they handle adding artifacts like wow and flutter, hiss, noise, and frequency bandwidth

The other thing to consider is that at their core most all tape plugins emulate the RE-201 as their baseline, many even try to look like one

Also consider the things we want in 2024 in a tape echo plugin were not desirable in the 1970s and 1980s which is why they were largely abandoned in favor of digital delays and Analog Bucket Brigades

[ChamomileShark]

The thing to remember is in the 1970s and 1980s tape was not unique and we spent all our energy trying to make it not sound like tape. We didn't want hiss, we didn't want wow and flutter. Everything people want with tape in 2024 we didn't want in back then

ok so you are talking about accuracy, got it.

You don't need to remind me about tape, I was also around at that time, using portastudios, TEAC 4 tracks and a ReVox.

I did like the lofi sound of the Wem Copycat and the ReVox when you got them into runaway feedback territory sometimes just using the natural tape hiss.

I'll bear in mind your comments re SSLs delay, although I have a number of other SSL plugins it's not one I'd really looked at. It's on sale right now but I think I'll hold off as I have a number of items I want in the Black Frifay sales and I'm sure SSL will have more sales again.

[Brandon Ryan]

So it's really not hard to nail the sound of the RE-201 as it didn't actually have a sound outside of the tape itself and then really only if the tape itself was old, or if your particular unit was not functioning properly

Again, it begs the question of why every emulation sounds wildly different. If the above is true, why doesn't every RE-201 plug-in sound the same, and why has Roland/BOSS spent so many years refining and improving it? Are you saying every plug-in sounds like the RE-201s you owned? Intensity sounds the same on all plug-ins and tape delays? Delay+reverb have the same character? The units distort and compress the same way? I find that rather...curious.

[Brandon Ryan]

Sounds like you have basically zero experience with the actual hardware units themselves especially the Roland RE-201. What preamp characteristics are you talking about? The RE-201 had very transparent preamps there was no mojo there, there was also no reels or spools, and if your unit was functional there was no perceived wow or flutter either

A rather unfortunate assumption. I have indeed been fortunate enough to spend quality time with several analog Space Echo units at various times in my life and in various states of repair/disrepair.

The preamp and distortion characteristics are an oft-discussed aspect of the RE-201. There are numerous articles about it, artists that use it as part of their sound. There are even pedals created to mimic it. The preamps are not transparent at all when pushed. The unit is anything but transparent when the controls are abused. Love it or hate it, this is part of the "magic" of the RE-201, to some, anyway. Used as a simple delay, in pristine condition, trying to get it as clean as possible, I can see why it might seem unremarkable. Perhaps your usage of the RE-201 did not include abusing the preamp, intensity, etc. (as is the case in a number of musical genres). However, there are many artists and producers that have used the RE-201 for its unique combined characteristics. This is why describing "sound" is so difficult and subjective, as we all use things - and hear things - in different ways.

As for how much new tape delays cost that is not really relevant. The RE-201 was a mass produced device that used many off the shelf parts, tape mechanisms were extremely common and abundant in the 1970s and 1980s as was tape itself

In 2024 actual tape delays are boutique devices built with expensive parts and tape mechanisms and tape heads are not really common and are hard to get, so of course they cost a lot

It seems I wasn't clear on my point here. My point was that if they're so easy to replicate, with nothing all that remarkable about their characteristics, why is there a market for analog, tape-based units that fetch such relatively high prices? Why even bother if it's such a simple sound to replicate and if a relatively inexpensive plug-in will do exactly the same thing?

If you had a properly functioning RE-201, and had a decently new tape and clean heads your RE-201 was as transparent as could be. Pretty much any tape delay plugin can emulate that sound

But, as you yourself stated, this isn't what contemporary producers want from a tape echo. They want the sound that results when you abuse it, when you use a unit in various states of disrepair. This is the point of most "vintage desire," whether it be mics, preamps, snare drums, guitars, etc. Of the RE-201s, Mellotrons, Rhodes, and other gear I've had the fortune of being able to experience, it was the "age" and resulting quirkiness that often stood out and that I think appeals to many users. By-the-book use of a pristine unit is often disappointing compared to the built-up expectations many people have.

The reason the RE-201 was so popular was because it was built like a tank, was transparent, and had a spring reverb that guitarists could use if they didn't have one in their amp, but even that spring reverb was pretty generic

Popularity at its release and ongoing popularity are for different reasons. The reason to use a tape delay in the mid-70s is not the same reason one reaches for one today. The same goes for any analog synthesizer that shipped with brass and flute presets, etc. Yes, the spring reverb could be described as "generic." You could also describe it as "thin" or trashy," etc. But, to some listeners, at least, it's the way it combines with the delay that just works. More than the sum of its parts, as is the case with so much music gear.

Different RE-201 units sounded different because they were in different states of being mechanically functional, had different wear on the playback heads, and had different tapes in them with different levels of wear and tear

Of course, this is why the Roland RE-201 plug-in has modeled facilities for replicating these factors. As I stated earlier, these are the factors that appeal to today's tape delay user vs. someone buying one for an as-clean-as-possible, transparent delay experience 40 or 50 years ago.

Again pretty much any tape plugin can emulate the sound of a properly functioning RE-201with good tape. The differences between them come down to the tape simulation and how they handle adding artifacts like wow and flutter, hiss, noise, and frequency bandwidth

Perhaps, but it's the differences and the outside use cases that matter here. And there are a number of factors - all the ones you just mentioned above, and more. And this is what matters to most people reaching for a tape delay in 2024. Not a gently used preamp, no reverb, sane intensity levels, perfect tape condition, on a pristinely functioning unit. If that's what you're looking for, then yes, any old delay might just do.

Again, I ask the question. If it's so simple, why does every RE-201 simulation sound different, and wildly so in many cases? Load them all up on a track, play through them, and mess with the settings. They aren't the same at all, especially once overdrive, intensity, and other factors come into play.

The other thing to consider is that at their core most all tape plugins emulate the RE-201 as their baseline, many even try to look like one

And if completely unremarkable, why is this the case?

Also consider the things we want in 2024 in a tape echo plugin were not desirable in the 1970s and 1980s which is why they were largely abandoned in favor of digital delays and Analog Bucket Brigades

Exactly. And the fact that you know this is what kind of puzzles me as to why we are even having this conversation, which seems to be predicated on the point of view of someone using a tape delay, as a transparent delay, half a century ago.

[IvyBirds]

So it's really not hard to nail the sound of the RE-201 as it didn't actually have a sound outside of the tape itself and then really only if the tape itself was old, or if your particular unit was not functioning properly

Again, it begs the question of why every emulation sounds wildly different. If the above is true, why doesn't every RE-201 plug-in sound the same, and why has Roland/BOSS spent so many years refining and improving it? Are you saying every plug-in sounds like the RE-201s you owned? Intensity sounds the same on all plug-ins and tape delays? Delay+reverb have the same character? The units distort and compress the same way? I find that rather...curious.

You seem to be missing my point. The RE-201 was pretty transparent. Assuming you has a proper functioning unit, any differences in tone were a direct result of the tape itself. The differences in the various plugins all come down to the implementation of how they emulate the tape itself

If you could go back in time and get 10 brand new RE-201 units off the shelf, and put 10 different tape loops in them made by different manufacturers, that had different wear and tear on them you would also get wide variations in tone

That sonic difference would be the result of the age of the tape, the different sonic characteristics of the tape formulations themselves, and how much wear and tear or damage the tape itself has

The RE-201 used standard 1/4" reel to reel tape. It was pretty simple to roll your own and in the 1970s and 1980s there was a wide variety of tapes available since they were pretty commonly used in home stereo HIFI systems. You could also use pieces of 8 Track stereo tapes since that was also 1/4". Simply put 1/4" tape was readily available at any store that sold Hi/Fi Stereos, records or tapes, and if you wanted to break open an 8 track cartridge any drug store or even gas station. Keep in mind 1/4" tape is twice as wide as a standard audio cassette tape, and the stock itself is significantly thicker, and the tape itself in the delay itself is moving faster than a cassette. That means the actual recording on a properly functioning unit is way clearer than a standard audio cassette

Simply put the mojo and magic was in the tape itself not the RE-201 hardware, but even then that tape was pretty clear

If your unit was out of alignment, had a malfunctioning motor or tape mechanism, or had dirty or worn heads that could also also effect the tone, but those things would vary greatly from unit to unit

So the differences in plugins come down to how they simulate the actual sonic character of tape, and how they model problems with tape transports, worn out tapes, and dirty heads.

Those tape characteristics and mechanical issues or dirty head issues also would not be unique to the RE-201, every single tape delay unit was subject to them. In reality the RE-201 was built like a tank and had very high quality tape heads and tape mechanisms so the RE-201 was a lot less likely to have those issues than other brands from the time period

The biggest improvements with tape delay plugins over the years has been the improvements with how they are able to model the tape itself and how they can model the multiple generations of recording you get with each round of feedback being recorded. But again that is the same for all hardware tape delays not just RE-201

That's why you can use pretty much any tape delay plugin to emulate an RE-201 that was working properly with a new tape