STILL trying to wrap my head around compression/limiters - be gentle!

[ulrichburke]

Dear Anyone.

So I've got a choir VST that sounds nice but is far too quiet, even on full volume, compared to all the other instruments (and I want it to be just about the lead sound.) I know the obvious answer's 'keep the other sounds quieter' but they're TOO quiet if I do that. 'Use another choir'. Yup, could do - but for this piece I kinda like the sound of this one, but I'll change it if all else fails.

1. Am I right in thinking the answer to the volume prob's using compression?

2. Am I right in thinking compression works - if the answer to the above question's a 'yes', not a 'no, use this instead' - by boosting lows and reducing highs when the target level's reached, so the sound's perceived as louder?

3. And the 'please be nice' question because I know this one should be obvious. I've got a knob on my compressor labeled 'output gain'. Is the output from that knob taken into consideration BY the compressor so, if it is, compression starts at the level set by threshold and output gain added together?

I'm not going to put my dumbass limiter question in here, going to try to understand one at a time!

Sorry, everyone, and thanks in advance for your patience with me.

Yours respectfully,

Chris.

[lfm]

#1-2: If you get peaks above -12 dBFs on meters compression probably works
- otherwise raise fader or do normalization

Possibly try make more unison voices over octaves to make it appear stronger.
- or harmonies

3. Output Gain label is sometimes for makeup gain, sometimes not.
- see if specs say auto makeup gain or something, it maybe just doing volume after compressor
- otherwise I suspect it is same as makeup gain

Auto makeup gain usually just adds about the same gain as you lower threshold.

[billinder33]

If the issue is that it's overall just not loud enough, you could just turn up the volume at the source VSTi, or bounce it to a clip and turn up the clip gain.

You would only use a compressor if you want the quieter parts and the louder parts to be closer in volume. i.e., reduce the dynamic range. Dynamic range reduction in compressors happens BEFORE the output knob, which is often called 'makeup gain'.

Prior to the output/makeup gain, the compressor is technically making things quieter by reducing (compressing) the volume of the louder parts. The threshold knob determines when you are applying this volume reduction, ratio determines 'by how much' you are lowering the volume of the loud parts, attack & release is the timing of the volume reduction. In the final stage, the makeup gain (output knob) raises the volume of the compressor's output to the level where you want it in the mix.

Or to say it more simply, after reducing the volume of the louder parts, you typically want to restore the gain to where the peak volume is the same as before you used the compressor. By increasing the makeup gain, the overall volume will be louder, because after the compression has been applied and output gain restored, you have effectively increased the volume of the quieter parts.

Whether this makes sense on your choir part is unknowable without listening to the track. If the entire choir part is to quiet, first I'd just turn it up without using a compressor. At that point, if the quieter parts are too soft and getting buried by other instruments in the mix, then using compression makes sense.

Choirs can be tricky to compress because the are typically very slow to change volume. Often just doing volume automation on the faders will work as well or better than a compressor. Now consider the other extreme.... a fingerpicked acoustic guitar where the volume of each note changes with each fingerpick. Obviously this is way too fast for a human to automate with faders, so a compressor makes a lot of sense here. Most instruments fall between these two extreme examples.

Finally, a limiter is just a compressor with very high ratios. If the ratio is 'infinity', it is called a 'Brickwall Limiter' and will prevent the signal from escaping past a threshold (typically 0 dbfs). These tend to make more sense in mastering when you are trying to push a full mix to maximum loudness without going into clipping.

Hope that all helps!!!

[legendCNCD]

Try this one: https://hermetechmastering.com/compressors.html
Back in the day the similar method helped me

[Watchful]

Could you double the choir? Make a duplicate of the track--pan one maybe 10% right and the other track 10% left? You're doubling the output, which should increase volume, but by separating slightly you can create a little more depth. This might achieve your goal of keeping the original plugin that you like without modifying too much.

Billinder is right that a compressor on a choir is going to be troublesome unless it's peaking at points. Most sample-based choirs are already compressed at recording, so you're not going to see much value in trying to recompress it. Just seems like it's too quiet for your needs and needs to be amplified.

[jamcat]

I know the obvious answer's 'keep the other sounds quieter' but they're TOO quiet if I do that.

Compress the other instruments. Then when you turn them down, they’ll be quieter without disappearing so much.

Try a modeled preamp on the choir. Nothing too drastic, but it will give it more presence, body, and weight, along with more volume, if needed.

[thecontrolcentre]

Use a utility plugin before the choir to increase the gain/volume.
Should do the job without any need for compression.
https://musicianshq.com/utility-vst-plugins/

Free utility ...
https://www.vennaudio.com/utility/

Utility is a free, lightweight, universal general purpose all in one digital channel strip plugin offering precise controls over various aspects of an audio signal, from mid/side processing to soft clipping.
Features include:
input routing with separate pans for the left and right channels, or alternatively a pre mono balance control to decide how the left and right channels are blended for conversion into mono.
gain, and individual left and right channel gains, mutes.
pan and phase inversion of either channel.
width control, along with separate mid and side gain sliders and mutes.
maximally flat minimal phase high and low pass 12db/octave filtering.
optional hard and soft clipping at 0db.
everything is fully automatable with sensible parameter ranges/scaling.

Some DAWs (like Live) have their own buit-in utility plugins.

[No_Use]

So I've got a choir VST that sounds nice but is far too quiet, even on full volume, compared to all the other instruments (and I want it to be just about the lead sound.) I know the obvious answer's 'keep the other sounds quieter' but they're TOO quiet if I do that.

TOO quiet in relation to what?
My first idea would be consider turning up your monitoring volume.

[mjolnir]

my intuition is to leave the other instruments alone and just use (auto) gain compensation on a compressor on the choir only.
Even Classic Master Limiter might work for that if adjusted correctly. It has built in gain compensation and works better as a fattener/compressor/saturator than a limiter. By keeping the choir peaks down, the overall level of them is smoother so you can then use the headspace to increase the choir's overall level. That's the point.

Then mix the rest as usual. That's how I'd look at it.

Probably there's more than one solution.

[cryophonik]

As others have said, this seems like a simple case of your “choir VST” not having enough output. So start with the basics at the source. Which VST are you using? What is the output level set to? What is the track meter in your DAW reading (dB) when it’s playing and how does that compare to the other tracks in the song? Maybe post a screenshot of the plugin open and the DAW running?

[kritikon]

Ditto all the others re gain. If it's too quiet simply use a gain plugin to boost it (your DAW might have one already). Or simply push up the fader way more than you would normally consider - you can go over zero if you need to, it won't harm it. I suspect there's something inside the choir plugin that's hidden or obscure that might let you boost the gain. It's unusual for any VST to be that quiet, so have a real good look around, check the manual etc, surely there's some kind of output boost available inside it?

Using compression will affect the dynamics of it as well as being able to boost it and you don't necessarily need to fiddle with dynamics. In this case, I don't think you need to get complicated and even do compression at all.

[yhvh]

Dear Anyone.

So I've got a choir VST that sounds nice but is far too quiet, even on full volume, compared to all the other instruments (and I want it to be just about the lead sound.) I know the obvious answer's 'keep the other sounds quieter' but they're TOO quiet if I do that. 'Use another choir'. Yup, could do - but for this piece I kinda like the sound of this one, but I'll change it if all else fails.

1. Am I right in thinking the answer to the volume prob's using compression?

2. Am I right in thinking compression works - if the answer to the above question's a 'yes', not a 'no, use this instead' - by boosting lows and reducing highs when the target level's reached, so the sound's perceived as louder?

3. And the 'please be nice' question because I know this one should be obvious. I've got a knob on my compressor labeled 'output gain'. Is the output from that knob taken into consideration BY the compressor so, if it is, compression starts at the level set by threshold and output gain added together?

I'm not going to put my dumbass limiter question in here, going to try to understand one at a time!

Sorry, everyone, and thanks in advance for your patience with me.

Yours respectfully,

Chris.

sorry if my answer has already been covered, i haven’t read through all the replies yet. so if i understand you correctly, you want the voices to remain how they are relative to each other, just with the whole thing louder without disturbing those relative voices? i hope it’s this bc that’s easy for you to solve, you need more gain.

if im wrong and you want to change the way the voices are relative to each other, and there aren’t specific controls for dynamics built into the sound library you’re using- it’s possible in theory to do this but the amount of frustration you’re going to endure for less than ideal results would suggest a different library. those sample libraries are processed quite a bit usually so you’re gonna be facing an uphill battle unless maybe it’s so dynamic with such distinct voices that you can target them without too much trouble. but that’s extremely unlikely. as far as compression goes, standard compression is going to bring down any louder pieces of audio and then the idea is now that you have a more even performance, bring the whole thing up to where formerly just those loud peaks were, so now you put those peaks back but all the other audio is right there too. so the quiet parts are louder and the loud parts are the same. that doesn’t sound like your goal here. there are other approaches in dynamics that may be helpful in theory similar to compression in some ways but in practice, use a more fitting library assuming you are wanting to change the dynamics. but i hope for your sake it was the first thing

as for your ? about output gain, technically the compression occurs before you get there as the compression is technically just the part where the loud parts are brought down. the output gain is what you use to bring the entire signal back up now that it’s more even. so even though it’s not technically part of the compressing, it’s important to the whole process so you could think of it as a second step in compression process, the first step being the compression

oh i missed your highs and lows question.. you could play with your eq settings but ultimately i don’t think you’re gonna get your results that way. either way, eq is a case by case thing so be careful with hard and fast rules like that. not saying they’re wrong but they might not be right

good luck

ETA: now that i’ve read the other replies, i believe jamcat suggested a preamp, i’ll second that. you’ll get the gain boost and the benefits from the preamp he mentioned, it’s a solid suggestion

[Crowzilla]

If you just want to raise the output level of the said choir plugin, like you would like to turn your phone/amplifier louder and it is already on the highest level, the answer is put any eq plugin on the track after the choir plugin and just use its output gain slider. Your daw has undoubtedly a gain plugin too, which will do the same thing, but with an equalizer you can then also equalize some parts of the sound, if needed.

[ulrichburke]

Thanks, no sarcasm, that really helped me get this track right - it's now in a Music Production library (gathering virtual cobwebs, probably!)

Yours respectfully,

Chris.