A lot of talk about the synth chips for filters and oscillators - but not so much about external components?

[lfm]

Capacitors mostly is what I see as different quality, and those are external components. Not on the chips.

An overview of filter designs
https://electricdruid.net/cem3320-filter-designs/

I had an incredible improvment in a DAC project many years ago.
- a guy bought 5 circuit boards in hongkong on eBay
- then swapped capacitors to various brands
- then compared resulting sound

So I followed that design and it was remarkable what just capacitors did to the sound.

Here's that project I followed
http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/LAMPUCE ... zator.html

- got rid of dual ended output that needs a differential opamp after
- if both stages not perfect match no ice cream
- then a combination of OS-CONS and tantal everywhere

The same talk is about capacitors on electronics on electric guitars etc.
- some swear by certain type like paper in oil for tone control and others

So how much of magic is lost when going for cheaper capacitors to keep synth prices down?
- and they are expensive the top quality ones

All reviews of synths mention the chips CEM3320 or similar a lot, but not the choice of capacitors.

Some synths now become $4000-5000 even, is choice capacitor quality one reason?

Just stumped so little talk about the rest of components, just the chips pretty much.
- same chip, so equally good?


The same goes for audio interfaces with AD and DA converts also.

What's your thoughts?

Thanks.

[Synthman2000]

All circuits have an impact on the sonic results of any audio electronics including DAC chips, Opamps, capacitors, power supplies etc. possibly even audio cables if you use very long and terrible quality ones.

It all depends on what you believe the impact on end results may be.

Will it make or break your track if 1 synth in your track has slightly better capacitors ?

Will having a very good direct software emulation of a single synth in the mix make or break your track compared to having hardware.

It is incredibly unlikely. Aging components and especially electrolytic capacitors will
eventually change the sound a little, to the point where your hardware might not work anymore. Now that will affect your track.

I believe this can be filed under, write more music think less about these minutia unless you hear crackling or have a dead output stage.

Any $4,000 synth will likely use just decent quality with a supplier who is reliable, has a good historic reputation and likely to be there in 5 or 10 years, not so much using audiophile options.

[egbert101]

Modern circuit boards are so good and stable that they're actually having to introduce vintage modes in order to add colour and variation to the analog sound. Take for instance the firmware update on the Sequential OB-6 which radically changed and improved the character of the sound with vintage modes.

So a lot of that analog character is through 40 years of aging not just the dodgy circuits made 40 years ago.

[lfm]

Will it make or break your track if 1 synth in your track has slightly better capacitors ?

It might, that's a bit what topic is about.

I don't listen to any digital material other than my own modified DAC, including studio monitors.
- to have that extra silky smoothness in the high end
- sturdy firm bass

I felt the game Unmechanical has a really nice immersive sound
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 0477DB815D

If it was track 1 and 5 I liked in particular.
- the game was fun and really taken by the soundtrack too
- with those nice harmonics on a sine or whatever it is

That's not a ModWave bouncing those sounds around.
- even if production can do a lot

I lot of synth reviews I watched do this filter sweep thingy and what you hear reveal a lot of quality of components.
- I think that's why most do that test

So yes, I think it can make or break with components chosen.

Like when I swapped tuners on my LP to ones that really has a tight fit in headstock.
- suddenly there were harmonics not there before

[lfm]

Take for instance the firmware update on the Sequential OB-6 which radically changed and improved the character of the sound with vintage modes.

So a lot of that analog character is through 40 years of aging not just the dodgy circuits made 40 years ago.

Inconsistencies in components is one thing if quality of components are good to start with.
- what harmonics are resonances in filter create?

Phase differences between oscillators is always nice. Sometimes a detune is enough, no chorus effect needed.

This tutorial is doing "vintage" thing with REV2


I just do changes in envelopes. Doing a copy of A layer to B layer, just different oscillator slop on REV2, and alter voice panning between layers is enough for most of immersive feel.

I think what people listen for in filter sweeps is those harmonics when filter resonating
- quality filter components and design give nicer harmonics

[whyterabbyt]

I think what people listen for in filter sweeps is those harmonics when filter resonating
- quality filter components and design give nicer harmonics

yeah, that's why MS20, Wasp and Polivoks filters are so popular, all those quality components.

[BertKoor]

Here's that project I followed
http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/LAMPUCE ... zator.html

Who ever wrote that down, I find his writing quality quite low. And I find red flags all over:
* Not much gets explained or backed up by facts or measurements.
* Lots of sweeping statements which are provable wrong.
* He writes the difference he made is "subjective".
Is he an audiophile perhaps? That would explain a lot!

What is "quality" of a capacitor any way? Is it about the conductance? That can be compensated in the circuit design. Is it the tolerance? Heat sensitivity, wear over the years? No definition of "quality" means it's a guessing game and anything goes.

If it is about rejecting modern techniques such as surface mounting, then try replacing all your caps with Leyden jars

[Synthman2000]

Will it make or break your track if 1 synth in your track has slightly better capacitors ?

It might, that's a bit what topic is about.

I don't listen to any digital material other than my own modified DAC, including studio monitors.
- to have that extra silky smoothness in the high end
- sturdy firm bass

I felt the game Unmechanical has a really nice immersive sound
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 0477DB815D

If it was track 1 and 5 I liked in particular.
- the game was fun and really taken by the soundtrack too
- with those nice harmonics on a sine or whatever it is

That's not a ModWave bouncing those sounds around.
- even if production can do a lot

I lot of synth reviews I watched do this filter sweep thingy and what you hear reveal a lot of quality of components.
- I think that's why most do that test

So yes, I think it can make or break with components chosen.

Like when I swapped tuners on my LP to ones that really has a tight fit in headstock.
- suddenly there were harmonics not there before

You think it might and I disagree, no one will hear the difference or care if it is a good emulation or the original synth hardware, expensive caps or not.

Did you stop the consider the synth emulation I proposed may sound better ?

Who is to say the sonic preference is not for the cheaper capacitors which may be warmer or clearer, even if they dry out 5 years earlier.

Then the worse quality ones are musically preferable.

Comparing capacitors to a precision mechanical guitar component guitar is a nonsense analogy. One mechanical, one electronic using different principles and laws of physics.

Waste no more time on this because your position is not tenable. It has more holes than a piece of Edam.

[lfm]

What is "quality" of a capacitor any way? Is it about the conductance? That can be compensated in the circuit design. Is it the tolerance? Heat sensitivity, wear over the years? No definition of "quality" means it's a guessing game and anything goes.

Differences is how fast it can deliver the charge among other things like leakage between plates etc.

To compensate imperfections you sometimes use electrolytic and then also polyester one in parallell.

So it's about a lot more than the actuall conductance.

And the project was very hands on
- swap capacitors
- listen

And I can verify his grades he did, was very much like my own
- first doing just OSCONS
- then also tantal with the exact improvement he graded

[lfm]

You think it might and I disagree, no one will hear the difference or care if it is a good emulation or the original synth hardware, expensive caps or not.

Those that did mixing long enough would.
Casual mp3 listener, not.

Did you stop the consider the synth emulation I proposed may sound better ?

No, that is all a fantasy.
- you did not propose anything
- just a general idea that something digital would sound as good.

Check why Waldorf did Quantum with analog filters which is much more expensive and fewer voices were made


He compared digital filter of Iridium with Quantum analog.
- he says, almost identical
- I say vast diffference

Here first comment on this on his YT
"Wow, the filters difference is more obvious than I thought! Thanks for the review."

He got sent the Iridium and did not want to bash it, I think.

I use almost all hardware emulating plugins that Waves has, and assume they do something more than just any digital plugin.
- but not replacing the hardware itself

Who is to say the sonic preference is not for the cheaper capacitors which may be warmer or clearer, even if they dry out 5 years earlier.

Then the worse quality ones are musically preferable.

You just make things up in your mind.

How about actually doing A/B test and hear for yourself.

Comparing capacitors to a precision mechanical guitar component guitar is a nonsense analogy. One mechanical, one electronic using different principles and laws of physics.

In general talking about how a choice of component makes a difference is an analogy that is not for everybody.

And my assumption is that small capacitors do as well, hense the topic.

[lfm]

I think what people listen for in filter sweeps is those harmonics when filter resonating
- quality filter components and design give nicer harmonics

yeah, that's why MS20, Wasp and Polivoks filters are so popular, all those quality components.

I believe you, thank you.

[BertKoor]

- swap capacitors
- listen

I see several issues in this approach. Most could be addressed by doing measurements on test tones instead of listening to reference tracks. I strongly believe testing equipment is as least as sensitive as our own ears, and it's certainly objective.

Another issue is to determine which capacitor is worth swapping. For some the effect will be neglectible.

And I agree with what was written above: you cannot rule out that a less ideal / subpar / cheap capacitor is better or perceived as preferred certain places.

[koho]

The 2 versions of the Behringer 2600 is a good illustration of the difference that good quality capacitors have on the sound.

Here it shows the Gray Meanie with the upgraded capacitors:

And here is a good A/B comparison with the standard version:

[egbert101]

You would be hard to hear any difference between the two, and there is a lot of personal bias going on once you know which has the higher quality capacitors. Does it make a difference in a mix? Absolutely not.

[koho]

You would be hard to hear any difference between the two, and there is a lot of personal bias going on once you know which has the higher quality capacitors. Does it make a difference in a mix? Absolutely not.

I heard a difference and I had a clear preference for the Gray Meanie. Maybe I am an outlier, or maybe it's confirmation bias, but it's actually pretty clear if you have good monitors and pay attention to the high frequencies. But yeah in a mix just use whatever garbage plugins you want because nobody cares, we're all going to die one day anyway, etc.