A lot of talk about the synth chips for filters and oscillators - but not so much about external components?

[sin night]

Mmm… there are different types of capacitors (each with specific advantages and weaknesses) and for each type there are various choices avaible with slightly different performances.

From my understanding, it highly depends on what the capacitor is doing in the circuit.

For example, there’s a diy oscillator named “VCO Maximus” (which I plan to build at some point) which - if I remember correctly- is quite specific about the type of timing capacitor you should use (if you want the tuning to be precise).
Another example are Sample&Hold circuits, very low leakage is desiderable (if you want the sampled value to be stable). And so on…

But there are other places/circuits which may be less sensitive to the capacitor choice (or an “expensive” and “technically better” part may be overkill and bring no discernible differences).

Anyway, if you look at that electric druid page (and other pages on that site), you’ll notice that you can make many different circuits out of the same IC. I would bet that makes way more difference than the choice of the “external” component (as long as they are appropriate for the task).


Just my opinion, of course!

[lfm]

The 2 versions of the Behringer 2600 is a good illustration of the difference that good quality capacitors have on the sound.

Interesting find, thank you.

Maybe the ARP, taking the price tag, pay extra attention to these things.
- it's a leap from Behringer price and Korg FS reissues

When looking at multi million dollar studios they pay serious extra money to get that extra little something for each recorded track, better mikes and preamps and rack effect units.
- often they work on higher internal voltages
- capacitors become much more expensive the higher voltage they can endure

But a little better on each of maybe 40+ tracks makes major difference as summed up to a full mix.

This is the take we should have on everything we record, I think.

Did GenZ maybe loose some of that listening to streaming and mp3 and such, thinking this is as good as it gets?
- the uprise of vinyl gives hope

[lfm]

From my understanding, it highly depends on what the capacitor is doing in the circuit.

True. If in analog signal chain or over power to chips I've seen remarks what is better.

That's why I was stumped over that the DAC with most capacitors over power on circuit board, made such a difference.
- seems that digital circuits needs delivery of charge real quick to handle the analog parts inside chip
- so quality capacitors do this better

Analog part is basically from output pin on dac chip through a tantal and out.
- but chip is surrounded by analog components too

[lfm]

- swap capacitors
- listen

I see several issues in this approach. Most could be addressed by doing measurements on test tones instead of listening to reference tracks. I strongly believe testing equipment is as least as sensitive as our own ears, and it's certainly objective.

So your mixes are full of test tones?

Or maybe you do not do much of that. There are many reasons to visit KVR, I guess.

I really go by trusting my ears, what else is there.
- calibrating to reference tracks of course

[BertKoor]

Am I mixing test tones? Hell no!
I'm just too aware of how bad we humans are in comparing sound.
Our brains are easy to fool, so I only trust objective equipment on such matters.

[imrae]

The challenge in A/B testing filter capacitors for tone is that the component value tolerances are likely to dominate over other effects. So unless you carefully bin out ceramic vs poly vs tantalum caps with very similar values, you will hear a difference in frequency response from the value change. Probably you will prefer one value over the other on a given signal. But you don't really learn about ceramic vs poly vs tantalum.

[resynthesis]

+1
We tested a bunch of expensive, "exotic" PIO caps against bog standard electrolytics in guitar tone circuits using a sig gen and spectrum analyser and there was no difference when matched. Did some similar things with guitar drive and boost pedals and, again, there was no difference between the exotic higher priced electrolytics and the run of the mill electrolytics.

[Synthman2000]

You would be hard to hear any difference between the two, and there is a lot of personal bias going on once you know which has the higher quality capacitors. Does it make a difference in a mix? Absolutely not.

I heard a difference and I had a clear preference for the Gray Meanie. Maybe I am an outlier, or maybe it's confirmation bias, but it's actually pretty clear if you have good monitors and pay attention to the high frequencies. But yeah in a mix just use whatever garbage plugins you want because nobody cares, we're all going to die one day anyway, etc.

In 2024 that software synths are very far from garbage. They are extremely good. We need only look at U-He to know this amongst a few others and also digital synths.

I think listening to differences in highs etc is a nerdy kind of dissection which is fine and has its place. If you derive pleasure and satisfaction from it that's fine. The bigger picture is most people wish to make music and the workflow and composition is the main focus.

It is what you are playing or producing that is of greater significance.

As I said one persons brighter is another's less warm.

[koho]

I think you are making an assumption that people cannot both obsess about sound as well as obsess about composition. Both things can be true, actually. I think you will find many accomplished composers who also had very strong opinions about the sonic details of their work.

And where did I say that plugins are garbage? Just because garbage plugins exist does not make all plugins garbage. I use plugins for synths maybe 95% of the time.

[PieBerger]

if I remember correctly- is quite specific about the type of timing capacitor you should use (if you want the tuning to be precise).

For timing capacitors, low tolerance e.g. 1%, are usually recommended for precision/stability of the VCO core. You'll often see polyester or polypropylene box capacitors used for timing capacitors, WIMA, are a popular brand and these are used in the Instruo/DivKid ochd I think (I haven't studied the PCB in great detail, I just noticed the familiar red box capacitors when plugging in the power and expander ribbons!).

Equally you can build a stable enough VCO with 1% tolerance C0G SMD ceramic caps too, Andrew Nonlinear Circuits uses these in most of his designs, including the Plague of Demons VCO (there's a provision for box or SMD cap actually) and in his eurorack port of Ian Fritz's Hypster, for example.

I'd be very surprised if enough people or anyone even, could reliably discern the difference between PE/PP box and MLCC caps used in the same circuit. Lesser quality components that can't hold 1% it would be noticeable, but 1% caps with different dielectric materials, no way (except for one person who has spent their entire life listening to and who only frequents forums and doesn't actually produce or listen to music )