I'm wondering how common is this.
IMy interpretation on why this sounds good is because the sec. dim is built on the relative minor of the tonic of the progression, which is closely related with it's relative minor.
Am I thinking correctly?
Progression ending on vii°7/vi - I
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- KVRist
- 392 posts since 4 Aug, 2020 from Montreal, Canada
Hi! You may simply think it as a V sound. Here's a couple of my perspectives:
- #5 = b6 in scale = b9 on V7 (V7b9 minus root)
- The four dim7 chords share the same notes, and can act as passing/neighbour chord in the extended scale of major + #5/b6.
- iv (IVm) / iiø (IIm7b5) have a V-ish sound too
Probably not a very common progression though! Here's one in the wild - check out the very end:
- #5 = b6 in scale = b9 on V7 (V7b9 minus root)
- The four dim7 chords share the same notes, and can act as passing/neighbour chord in the extended scale of major + #5/b6.
- iv (IVm) / iiø (IIm7b5) have a V-ish sound too
Probably not a very common progression though! Here's one in the wild - check out the very end:
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
for future reference (if there is a future) and in case 'essentially V7' isn't clear: 'viiº7 of vi' is also spelled as viiº7 of i.
in C: B D F Ab. Ab is the minor mode mixing in is all.
in C: B D F Ab. Ab is the minor mode mixing in is all.
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 6 Jun, 2012 from USA
I think it is important to keep in mind you can have a progression in major with both dim7 of vi followed by dim7 of I. I
Enharmonically equivalent but 2 different chords.
Key of C
Vii o of vi would be spelled Ab Cb D F
Vii of I would be B D F Ab
Essentially the difference between V7 of I and [V7] -> vi
The ambiguous sound and the fact that every dim7 chord has 4 resolutions for each inversion makes them great pivot chords to modulate to another key.
It is easier to think of applied dim7 as an applied V to a stable triad and that you don’t really have to know the exact key that it is temporarily situated in. When I was learning how these chords work, I was more focused initially on just the way the 4 voices resolve and how you can transpose those voice movements making them easier to plug in like a function.
Enharmonically equivalent but 2 different chords.
Key of C
Vii o of vi would be spelled Ab Cb D F
Vii of I would be B D F Ab
Essentially the difference between V7 of I and [V7] -> vi
The ambiguous sound and the fact that every dim7 chord has 4 resolutions for each inversion makes them great pivot chords to modulate to another key.
It is easier to think of applied dim7 as an applied V to a stable triad and that you don’t really have to know the exact key that it is temporarily situated in. When I was learning how these chords work, I was more focused initially on just the way the 4 voices resolve and how you can transpose those voice movements making them easier to plug in like a function.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
In the Bach example specifically, @12 - 13 is a C#º7 as secondary dominant to ii6; @14 - 15 vii7 of C minor to I6 occurs.
So my dimming memory 'it borrows vii from parallel minor' apparently held.
If the intended meaning of "dim7 of vi followed by dim7 of I" is one directly follows the other, I'm having difficulty parsing that as two different harmonies. In the given example there are two different viiº7s each with their own resolution... so we got in the weeds a bit with that.
So my dimming memory 'it borrows vii from parallel minor' apparently held.
If the intended meaning of "dim7 of vi followed by dim7 of I" is one directly follows the other, I'm having difficulty parsing that as two different harmonies. In the given example there are two different viiº7s each with their own resolution... so we got in the weeds a bit with that.
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 6 Jun, 2012 from USA
two distinct chords that are enharmonically the same. I suppose you could keep the same enharmonic voicing using dim6/5 to vii and dim7 to I . Technically a different harmony as far as tonality is concerned. Lowering the root of dim7 to provide more context as to the way it will resolve is quite common so you would get F-E ( E7 of vii), then Ab-G V7 of I so it’s not really in the weeds. I don’t know at least to me.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Again, if they function differently they may be called different harmonies.
If we *run two or more dim 7s consecutively, which one is the intended resolution, ie., how is more than one resolution of the dominant harmony at the same time achieved? The resolution is the one thing that will tell us which of the 4 possible spellings of the diminished seventh chord is our meaning (as far as tonality is concerned).
"two distinct chords" - No, with no evident function this cannot be a true statement. We have a single four note sonority here; this will become distinct harmonies/have their particular spellings only via function.
PS: the context for "we got into the weeds" was the OP turns out to have its basis in two spots in the JS Bach selection.
as an absolutely necessary preface to "I'm having difficulty parsing that as two different harmonies". So. It's weird to have written, eg:I wrote:If the intended meaning of "dim7 of vi followed by dim7 of I" is one directly follows the other...*
only to have someone skim and offer "Technically a different harmony as far as tonality is concerned."In the Bach example specifically, @12 - 13 is a C#º7 as secondary dominant to ii6; @14 - 15 vii7 [of C minor] to I6 occurs.
If we *run two or more dim 7s consecutively, which one is the intended resolution, ie., how is more than one resolution of the dominant harmony at the same time achieved? The resolution is the one thing that will tell us which of the 4 possible spellings of the diminished seventh chord is our meaning (as far as tonality is concerned).
"two distinct chords" - No, with no evident function this cannot be a true statement. We have a single four note sonority here; this will become distinct harmonies/have their particular spellings only via function.
PS: the context for "we got into the weeds" was the OP turns out to have its basis in two spots in the JS Bach selection.