UAD Luna solely for mixing & mastering?

[Uncle E]

Studio One is better for mastering, as well.

[jens]

Again: the solution is to drag the audio on to a stereo track. I get that it's dumb but that's about as minor as an inconvenience can be.

Is it though? That verdict seems to assume you only use few mono-sources and record them for the whole song in one go.

If the majority of your tracks consist of mono-recordings and you record ten or so different parts on the majority of these that's quite a different story, right?

And especially if one likes to monitor through track-fx. Then suddenly your "minor inconvenience" becomes a PITA of such epic proportions that it's practically a nigh impossibility.

[Uncle E]

Yes, both good points, particularly when it's common for sessions to have 100+ tracks these days.

[jens]

Yes, both good points, particularly when it's common for sessions to have 100+ tracks these days.

Yes - even though my songs typically consist only of about ten to fiveteen tracks or so, yet still I can't see how I could deal with this restriction.

There's a few possible solutions:

1) create a track for each hardware-input to record onto, but use a bus for each mono-source and monitor through it, however:

- It seems there's no way to record onto one track in Luna, while monitoring (without recording) through another one. And thus, even more problematic so, it seems there's no way to monitor through a bus at all. So this solution doesn't practically exist in Luna due to its severe limitations.


2) Create both a normal track and a bus for each mono-source, then hide the former in the Mixer View and the latter in the Timeline-View, however:

- you can only hide tracks in both views at once. So this solution doesn't practically exist in Luna due to its severe limitations.


3) Then instead create both a group for the normal tracks and the busses respectively. Create a macro that opens the Mixer-View and hides the tracks-group at once, another one for the Timeline-View that hides the Busses-group. However:

- you can't create macros in Luna. You also can't toggle groups via shortcut in the first place.
You can't even change the hardcoded shortcuts at all. So this solution doesn't practically exist in Luna due to its severe limitations.


The more I look into it, the more I wonder who the heck Luna is actually meant to be for and how people are using it and how on earth they a) make their way through all these severe limiations and b) still manage to come up with something that doesn't sound decidely 90's bedroom-studio. I mean, obviously I am talking about folks who use audio-recording in the first place - if all you use is softsynths, you might not even notice.

But for anyone else: are you really putting all your phasers and flangers and chorusses and spatial-tools and rotary-plugins and reverbs (yadda yadda yadda) on sends just so you don't have to manually load your tape-machines and console-emus? Is that the price you are willing to pay for that?

The way it is right now: what's the actual point of Luna? Seriously: anyone?

[jens]

I just realized:

Though you can't hide them only for the timeline, you can't even put audio-clips on Bus tracks.
And you also can't route tracks to other (non-bus) tracks. And there are no folder-tracks either.

It's truly mind-boggling what can't be done in Luna.

[jens]

Okay, here's how it's done:

For every mono-source, create both a track and a bus. In the timeline, place all the busses at the bottom and minmize them. Now you still have the problem to have all the tracks which you don't need for mixing at all (as you can't minimize them), but at least they're all on the left. One option - in order not to confuse them with the busses - would be to colour them the same, but give the busses a prefix such as M (for mixing) (e.g. M-Bass, M-RhythmGit, etc.) - or perhaps write the tracks in minor letters and the busses in all caps...
- that's certainly far from a really proper solution, but at least it's workeable.

Is Luna good for mixing? Well, with that sort of bizarre handicap? Nah...

[Zikax]

Okay, here's how it's done:

For every mono-source, create both a track and a bus. In the timeline, place all the busses at the bottom and minmize them. Now you still have the problem to have all the tracks which you don't need for mixing at all (as you can't minimize them), but at least they're all on the left. One option - in order not to confuse them with the busses - would be to colour them the same, but give the busses a prefix such as M (for mixing) (e.g. M-Bass, M-RhythmGit, etc.) - or perhaps write the tracks in minor letters and the busses in all caps...
- that's certainly far from a really proper solution, but at least it's workeable.

Is Luna good for mixing? Well, with that sort of bizarre handicap? Nah...

You can also simply press Spill, and then you’ll only see the bus and the respective routed tracks. All others will be hidden.

But I think in the future we will still get features like mono-to-stereo tracks, folders, and much more. The last update alone was fantastic with track presets and bounce in place. Luna 2.0 is not far off, and I hope they continue delivering features we’re asking for, as they’ve done so far. Especially the MIDI editor is still missing quite a few things.

[_leras]

Studio One is better for mastering, as well.

Perhaps, but I'd be pretty sure it also doesn't get close to Wavelab or other mastering specific DAWs.

The project management in Wavelab is really suited to mastering and some others kinds of post production. And the analysis tools, real time and non realtime are also really really good. It is really easy to A/B tracks and jump between multiple tracks quickly to check things in an album context. And the audio editing features are just excellent.

So as good as studio one 'may be' for mastering compared to other DAWs, with respect I think it would fall quite short compared to tools like Wavelab.

[_leras]

The last update alone was fantastic with track presets and bounce in place. Luna 2.0 is not far off, and I hope they continue delivering features we’re asking for, as they’ve done so far. Especially the MIDI editor is still missing quite a few things.

This is why I think a DAW may not have been their best choice. So much effort needed and we've had fewer UAD plug ins, maybe or maybe not just as a result.

Building a fully featured DAW is no easy task. Even if they succeed I'm not sure why it would be better for me than my current DAWs which I already use all my UAD plug ins in. Literally only the console summing is missing. (I am intended to give it a try and will write up if it beats my expectations)

For context of other recent DAWs. Bitwig was released in 2014, and studio one was released in 2009.

Anyway I think UAD are a great company and I hope they keep makings great tools going forwards.

[Uncle E]

Okay, here's how it's done:

For every mono-source, create both a track and a bus. In the timeline, place all the busses at the bottom and minmize them. Now you still have the problem to have all the tracks which you don't need for mixing at all (as you can't minimize them), but at least they're all on the left. One option - in order not to confuse them with the busses - would be to colour them the same, but give the busses a prefix such as M (for mixing) (e.g. M-Bass, M-RhythmGit, etc.) - or perhaps write the tracks in minor letters and the busses in all caps...
- that's certainly far from a really proper solution, but at least it's workeable.

Is Luna good for mixing? Well, with that sort of bizarre handicap? Nah...

The majority of people bus mix when doing larger projects. It's a good way to work.

Also, as much as I agree about this being a stupid limitation (and stupid that we are forced to create workarounds), how many tracks are you using stereo modulation on where this becomes an issue? If everything is ultra wide, nothing is ultra wide.

[jens]

You can also simply press Spill, and then you’ll only see the bus and the respective routed tracks. All others will be hidden.

Tbh I don't see how that would help with the situation/problem. The Spill-function does soemthing else as far as I get it (and tbh something far less useful in my opinion)

But I think in the future we will still get features like mono-to-stereo tracks, folders, and much more. The last update alone was fantastic with track presets and bounce in place. Luna 2.0 is not far off, and I hope they continue delivering features we’re asking for, as they’ve done so far. Especially the MIDI editor is still missing quite a few things.

Don't get me wrong - I quite like the concept and design overall - it reminds me of Reason - which I why I find quite a shame that it's a lot well thought-through in many regards. And frankly I don't think it's missing features for the most part of it -well, lack of ARA for instance certainly is - but that mono-track thing clearly seems to be a crass misconception. And likewise that there are Bus-tracks that - potential automation aside - will be completely empty yet can't be hidden only for the timeline without also hiding them in the mixer (i.e. the place where you'll almost exclusively are going to use them).

Reason handles busses very similarly. However they won't appear in the sequencer unless you automate something. Only then they'll automatically appear - but of course you can always remove them again without removing them from the mixer.
In Luna-land on the other hand they obviously didn't give any thought to that.

[jens]

The majority of people bus mix when doing larger projects. It's a good way to work.

Perhaps - but if I'd do that I'd e.g. use a bus for all my guitar-tracks, in which case I might put a phaser on one of them, a chorus on another one, etc. (that's of course just a simple example - it's gonna be the same story on basically everything else. Even on drums you might put some stereo-fx on individual tracks (i.e. a flanger just on just the snare during a break)),
which means that if you are one of these folks you mentioned, the issue will only become an even bigger problem, as it means you need to route lots of busses into busses - and you can't hide any of them on the timeline without hiding them in the mixer too.

Sorry, but I'm flat out not buying it. There's no way someone is seriously putting up with this kind of crap on any serious project of a bigger scale. I assure you you'd have to force anyone for whom time is money at gun-point to even just consider it.

[Uncle E]

You don’t have to buy it. Sorry if it sounds like we’re selling it. Maybe Jacquire King and I are the only people who like it.

[jens]

You don’t have to buy it. Sorry if it sounds like we’re selling it. Maybe Jacquire King and I are the only people who like it.

I like it too - you may have misunderstood me - I was just saying that in its current state it's barely useable and not fit for anything serious.
(And Jacquire King is basically the Jordan Rudess of recording engineering, so one would be well-advised to generally take his word with a pinch of salt. )

[Zikax]

You can also simply press Spill, and then you’ll only see the bus and the respective routed tracks. All others will be hidden.

Tbh I don't see how that would help with the situation/problem. The Spill-function does soemthing else as far as I get it (and tbh something far less useful in my opinion)

But I think in the future we will still get features like mono-to-stereo tracks, folders, and much more. The last update alone was fantastic with track presets and bounce in place. Luna 2.0 is not far off, and I hope they continue delivering features we’re asking for, as they’ve done so far. Especially the MIDI editor is still missing quite a few things.

Don't get me wrong - I quite like the concept and design overall - it reminds me of Reason - which I why I find quite a shame that it's a lot well thought-through in many regards. And frankly I don't think it's missing features for the most part of it -well, lack of ARA for instance certainly is - but that mono-track thing clearly seems to be a crass misconception. And likewise that there are Bus-tracks that - potential automation aside - will be completely empty yet can't be hidden only for the timeline without also hiding them in the mixer (i.e. the place where you'll almost exclusively are going to use them).

Reason handles busses very similarly. However they won't appear in the sequencer unless you automate something. Only then they'll automatically appear - but of course you can always remove them again without removing them from the mixer.
In Luna-land on the other hand they obviously didn't give any thought to that.

I completely understand you, but I don’t think the mono track issue is a design flaw. It’s simply not possible at the moment, but that doesn’t mean we won’t get an update for it. Just be patient.

New features like Bounce in Place are very well thought out, and I haven’t seen this yet in some established DAWs.

Personally, I prefer having bus tracks visible in the arranger because I mostly mix exclusively in the arranger. Constantly switching to the mixer, especially without a second monitor, is pretty exhausting. It’s a good thing that, unlike Reason, Luna has a channel visible in the arranger.

And yes, Luna is perfect for mixing. Here are a few positives:
• All plugins work seamlessly.
• You can freeze tracks.
• Routing is fast and straightforward.
• The time-stretch algorithms are excellent.
• Audio editing (cutting, fades in and out, etc.) is super quick with shortcuts.
• The audio waveform display is clean.
• You can import tracks from other sessions.
• All types of tracks can be saved as presets and added to the arranger via drag-and-drop from the browser.
• On the output meter, you can enable or disable all plugins simultaneously.

Overall, I’m very satisfied. It’s not perfect yet, but as long as the features keep coming and remain free, I really can’t complain.