The Rhythmic Divide

[rp314]

Well, this unavoidably tends to be a conversation among "insiders" around here so it might be worth pointing out that the distinction between improvised music involving those who have been 'freed' by the 20th century pioneers (and the music of certain cultures), and stuff that is strictly composed may not be of much concern to many folks.

For example, Webern's 3 songs Opus 18, composed in 1925 ( )to average people might sound like just a group of musicians playing anything but what they consider to be "music".

The fact that some of us are well aware of the kind of discipline that's required to play such a work, does not necessarily differentiate it from "chaos", self-indulgence or whatever other term might be used by many listeners to refer to it as basically nonsense or non-music.

In my opinion the genie is out of the bottle and, as Frank pointed out on more than one occasion, there will always be freaks - those who painstakingly notate weird shit, the ones who prefer to just whip it out and jam, and those who do some of this and some of that depending on many imponderables.

Now, if you need to survive, well, that might require bottling up the freak now and then and relying more on the beauty of a steady beat...

[jancivil]

sorry, the fact of the methodology distinguishes it from 'chaos' per se.

[foosnark]

I find myself influenced by studying taiko drumming, in which there is (unless in a free solo or an intro, and sometimes even then) usually a definite "ji" -- a background rhythm that is traditionally fairly simple. In fact it's frequently every 16th note.

On top of that, things sometimes get more complex, or sometimes not.

As a group, we tend to prefer things that are 4/4 or 6/8 and straightforward but energetic. Completely the opposite of what I like to play on a frame drum.

My electronic music has wandered in both territories, and occasionally off in the too-ambient-for-rhythm world. I like it all. ::shrug::

[hibidy]

"Aperiodic" to me would be most drummers I've played with

Missed it by that much.......

[jancivil]

Webern's 3 songs Opus 18, composed in 1925 ( )to average people might sound like just a group of musicians playing anything but what they consider to be "music".

This is so brilliant. It's well past time to disregard what 'average people' think about things they know nothing about. Not like I ever cared. Those people picked on me in school, up to the point where the Griswold twins failed to show after I did "Meet me after school."

This has guitar! I did not know there was guitar in Webern. It's well idiomatic and extremely well gauged.

[rp314]

Yikes, getting to read some of my long-winded, opinionated posts from over a decade ago.

But also a chance to remember some good KVRians from back in the day, though.

So, regarding Anton Webern's Opus 18, I recall working at a record store back when the Boulez recordings of his complete works came out. I had already listened to some of Webern's compositions, but most of it was new to me. And in looking through the booklet I remember that I too was surprised to see that the personnel for that piece included none other than John Williams on guitar.

Over the years I've heard at least one live performance, I want to say with David Tannenbaum on guitar.

But, yes, a century ago Webern decided to include the guitar in his Opus 18 that's no doubt still being performed and listened to by some who dare to enter the interesting world of one whose life ended in such a tragic way.

[jancivil]

For some reason Carnatic music came up on a thread at the other forum which started with something of mine that isn't very related to Indian music. I had forgotten a little about that album so I googled and the first really relevant hit was this thread and those remarks. I was probably quoting a book in the library, or I found the bit I'd seen in a book in a search.

David Tannenbaum! I haven't seen that name in a while.
I wish I'd known about Opus 18 in school. Later in life I spent some time with an Allen Forte book which explained methodologies of Webern rows; like grouping segments, a 12-tone row split into 4 segments and so forth. Also delved a bit into A.W.'s focus on timbre.

[jancivil]

There was an interview of Zappa where someone says something like 'so you aren't serializing [pitch]' and he comes back with 'no, no, I might serialize several things, depending.' one was timbre.

I don't remember anything about rhythm in analyses of Webern. But evidently there's quite a lot I don't remember. I've not seen any real interest in Schoenberg as to rhythm, it's all very tame.
I like Elliot Carter and Zappa. In "Music Theory" at CCM James Galatin would have us sight-read stuff like Canarios, there the metrical modulation aspect tapping on our little desks in class.

[RunBeerRun]

plastic albums at the bottom remind me of cd's. They always skipped. Not sure why they discontinued tapes, those held up and cost half as much and were portable.

[harryupbabble]

tapes get eaten up by the tape player

tape heads need to be cleaned because tape bits sticks to it
tape bits on tape player heads are musical information that are lost?

[harryupbabble]

cds are great because if you have a excellent cd that don't skip...
then you can use your excellent microphone...
with your excellent computer...
in your excellent noisefree room...
to record your excellent speakers

[harryupbabble]

wait a sec
if your cds don't skip
then you probably don't need a skipping rope