F#/Gb scale with 6 accidentals where one is E# or Cb - why not F and B?

[lfm]

Struck me looking at the 6th accidental since not black keys but the half note intervals E-F and B-C.

One book list F# scale and ends with E#.
Another book list F# scale having B note and E#
- but Gb scale with Cb but end with F

Are there any implications regarding harmonizing to chords etc?
- one book list E#dim chord not Fdim

Is it just for notation purposes, and no implication at all?
- 6 accidentals and you know the key

Just curious, thanks for any input.

[Farnaby]

It is about musical 'spelling'. Each scale has a single occurrence of each note, i.e. ABCDEFG.

However these notes may be sharpened or flattened depending on the scale. This includes E and B even though on a piano the key for E# is the same as for F.

So in the scale of F# major there has to be an occurrence of the note E. But in this case the E needs to be sharpened. If we were to name the E# as F, then we would have two occurrences of F in the same scale.

Of course you can 'spell' notes as you wish (as with words), however this is the convention and most trained musicians find this easier to read, even if it seems confusing for beginners

[lfm]

So in the scale of F# major there has to be an occurrence of the note E. But in this case the E needs to be sharpened. If we were to name the E# as F, then we would have two occurrences of F in the same scale.

Thanks, that seems like a reasonable explanation. Never would have that figured out.

So no F and F# in the same scale.

I even saw a Cb key, where all 7 notes have accidentals.

So music theory of scales is woke, we must not leave out some letters A-G.
- that would be racist


Weird stuff.

[cryophonik]

So in the scale of F# major there has to be an occurrence of the note E. But in this case the E needs to be sharpened. If we were to name the E# as F, then we would have two occurrences of F in the same scale.

Thanks, that seems like a reasonable explanation. Never would have that figured out.

So no F and F# in the same scale.

I even saw a Cb key, where all 7 notes have accidentals.

So music theory of scales is woke, we must not leave out some letters A-G.
- that would be racist


Weird stuff.

It actually makes perfect sense when you consider how chords are formed from the scale degrees. I’ll let you think about that and I bet it will sink in (hint: is F the third scale degree of a C# scale?)

[sjm]

It's not that weird, especially if you think of how key signatures are denoted on a score. If you've no idea how they work, take a quick look. You get to define one accidental (sharps or flats) for each of the notes A B C D E F G on the staff. You can't have two accidentals on an F or whatever.

[lfm]

It's not that weird, especially if you think of how key signatures are denoted on a score. If you've no idea how they work, take a quick look. You get to define one accidental (sharps or flats) for each of the notes A B C D E F G on the staff. You can't have two accidentals on an F or whatever.

There the coin dropped for me, thank you.
Now it makes perfect sense.

You cannot have both an accidental and not have it on the same letter note.
- not without complicating and have naturals everywhere too

So it's a notation thing more than anything, as I see it.

[jancivil]

It's a coherence thing. It's more than anything about using simple facts about a key so that the thing is understood by anyone. "Key of C minor" and we know there is no D# to talk about (outside of a probably untoward chromatic conception, ie., a stretch past breakage.). It is unnecessarily complicating matters out of not knowing the lay of the land.

BTW, not all scales are limited to seven notes, so an octatonic scale will necessarily have one repeated letter name.
C Db Eb E F# G A Bb. Also dodecaphonic serialism is well over a century old now. Spelling matters where music is in key, and also in modal music. When that's out the window it's the composer's choice what to write a note as.

[jancivil]

Are there any implications regarding harmonizing to chords etc?
- one book list E#dim chord not Fdim

One hopes you don't believe that correct spelling of the vii harmony of F# major is down to which book you happen across.

The dominant harmonies of key of F# major are the V and the vii chord. C# E# G# B for the full dominant seventh (of which vii may be considered contained within). Any C to any F is the interval of a 4th, C D E F, 1 2 3 4. Triadic harmony is by definition built by 3rds.
Yes, you'll tend to unnecessarily need to write more signs if you write F natural, particularly when E# is in the key signature. If OTOH in say the key of B, F vs E# are chosen for reasons. A secondary dominant, "V of V", C# as per F# the thirds rule above applies; as it does if the secondary dominant V7b5 of IV in B (dominant of the E harmony) is done, its spelling will be B D# F A.

You may note that in the latter example, target is E, D# and F natural collapse to E in contrary motion. In part-writing harmony this is a thing. E# to E is a mistake in that case. Also convention has it that a flat inflection descends, a sharp inflection ascends, linearly. Strings players are trained to bring this out while intoning.

[AlainGeneva]

Each scale have a precise name.

[jancivil]

I'd be remiss not to explicate flat five substitute per V7 of V as I did with V7 of IV.
Let's go with key of B again: V7 of V = C#7 sp. C# E# G# B. flat five substitution principle basis is C#7b5; C# E# G B. Target = F#. the flat five substitute for C#7b5 itself is G7b5; G B Db F. (NB: bII7b5) Here there isn't a big crime to write C#. So kind of an exception to 'thirds rule' because of the equivalence. This seeming misspelling happens all the time in jazz under that principle.

[Starbright]

Actually it has a very simple reason: staffs. For most scales you have your pre #'s and pre b's, so instead of writing Bb for every note on the staff, you'll write it at the beginning.
It's also important to know that for certain tunings or instruments b and # ins't always a halfstep:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_(music)