Is talent born or created with hard work and practice

[VOODOO U]

If you believe (nota bene how I did not use the word "think") popularity is a sign of quality through itself you're a f**king idiot.

The f**king idiot is you. Nowhere did I say that popularity is a sign of quality.

I have never heard of them...

Nobody cares.

Donald Trump managed to (sort of) fill stadiums, doesn't make him talented

Nobody said anything about selling out anywhere equates to being talented. I do wonder if you f**king morons even bother to pay attention to what you read or if you fill in the blanks to satiate your goddamn egos.

Obviously he didn't listen to much of his own output

There now. Feel better? Love him or hate him he made more money making music than you'll ever make.

... who probably don't know any better and have no frame of reference for it.

Yeah that's it. Love BONERS music or you don't know any better. Noted.

[Dirtgrain]

Donald Trump managed to (sort of) fill stadiums, doesn't make him talented.

Would the people who fill those stadiums say Trump is talented?

[Michael L]

Would the people who fill those stadiums say Trump is talented?

They now want refunds on their tickets

[vurt]

Donald Trump managed to (sort of) fill stadiums, doesn't make him talented.

Would the people who fill those stadiums say Trump is talented?

there were a lot of folk leaving before he finished at many of them.

[harryupbabble]

just talent alone isn`t enough for some people

some people say that phil collins is a talented drummer but
led zeppelin needed a drummer and phil collins said something like "i can do that"
without even knowing led zeppelin songs, he flies across the ocean to do the gig in america
it was the live aid thingy in the 1980s
phil had no time to practice, very little rehearsal
it was a disaster?

on the other hand robert fripp kind of did the same thing
he flies to berlin from england to contribute guitar parts for a david bowie song
didn`t have time to rehearse or practice
hadn`t played guitar for years, was kind of retired

he hears david bowie`s new song for the first time
plays his guitar parts for the song, just like that
the song was "heroes"
it was not a disaster?

[BONES]

Nobody said anything about selling out anywhere equates to being talented. I do wonder if you f**king morons even bother to pay attention to what you read or if you fill in the blanks to satiate your goddamn egos.

I think you need to lay off the gear, mate. Here's what you said - "Interesting that someone who writes "shitty" songs managed to headline arenas." You may not have come right out and said it but the implication is clear.

There now. Feel better? Love him or hate him he made more money making music than you'll ever make.

As did Justin Bieber and Joe Dolce. Not much of an achievement, if you ask me.

Love BONERS music or you don't know any better. Noted.

That's a very simplistic view. But it's something I/we get all the time. When I first started, people would suggest I sound like Fred Schneider from the B-52s or Stan Ridgway from Wall of Voodoo because that was the only frame of reference they had to classify my vocal style. More recently we are sometimes compared to Nine Inch Nails by people who, again, have no better frame of reference because they have never heard the music of any other Industrial band/artist and certainly not the acts that inspired us. People in the scene get it right but in the wider community, people have no frame of reference by which to classify what we do. It's a simple fact, it means nothing.

[donkey tugger]

Donald Trump managed to (sort of) fill stadiums, doesn't make him talented.

Would the people who fill those stadiums say Trump is talented?

there were a lot of folk leaving before he finished at many of them.

Ken Dodd-tastic.

[vurt]

Donald Trump managed to (sort of) fill stadiums, doesn't make him talented.

Would the people who fill those stadiums say Trump is talented?

there were a lot of folk leaving before he finished at many of them.

Ken Dodd-tastic.

several people died waiting for him to finish, 12 hours ffs

[VOODOO U]

"You may not have come right out and said it

Exactly. I didn't say it.

but the implication is clear.

No. Your *interpretation* is clear in your own mind because people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear.
There are many bands/artists out there who sell out arenas and sell millions of records that I consider talentless shit. But it doesn't mean they lack talent (or that they have it); it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Not much of an achievement, if you ask me.

You're so full of shit. If you had the opportunity to sign to a major and sell millions so you could make good money with live performances you would've done it.

That's a very simplistic view.

Because it *is* simple. Whatever music anyone else likes that you consider shit, you point a finger and throw in whatever philosophy to explain their "incompetence" and "bad taste" in music preference. It's your way or the highway.

[BONES]

There are many bands/artists out there who sell out arenas and sell millions of records that I consider talentless shit.

So why use that to show that Yngwie Malmsteen was anything but more of that "talentless shit", like so many others if, by your own admission, it is meaningless? You can't have it both ways.

You're so full of shit. If you had the opportunity to sign to a major and sell millions so you could make good money with live performances you would've done it.

Maybe, it would depend on the conditions. If we had final cut on everything, then sure, but the thing is, there was never a time when what we do would have qualified for that level of "success" and we do what we do because it's what we have to do. That's what makes it art, in the purest sense of the word. You can't fake this shit, I could no more write a Top 10 rock or pop song than you could write a no. 1 EBM album.

The last thing I would ever want to do is turn NOVAkILL into a business. There are probably only half-a-dozen bands in our genre that can eke out a living from it. I've seen what a few of their lives are like and I am far happier doing things the way we do it. Yes, it's incredibly frustrating that the genre is all but dead here but we're never going to change what we do just to chase an audience. There is no sincerity in that and the audience will see through it in 10 seconds flat. You gotta do what you gotta do and if it finds an audience, that's great. If it doesn't, you keep pluggin' away, doing the best you can. Either that or you sell out, I suppose, but that's never been an option for us so we continue to do what we do. To thine own self be true.

[VOODOO U]

So why use that to show that Yngwie Malmsteen was anything but more of that "talentless shit", like so many others if, by your own admission, it is meaningless? You can't have it both ways.

I don't understand. If you can point to me where there is a discussion on Malmsteen and "talent" i might better understand whateveŕ point you're trying to make.

I could no more write a Top 10 rock or pop song than you could write a no. 1 EBM album.

It'd be a hell of a lot easier for me to write a no. 1 EBM album than it would be to write a top10 rock or pop song. With the former i only need to sell 10 albums where with the latter i need to suck 100 weenies just to get a record deal and kill my way up to a number one.
And yes, I'm saying I absolutely can write in any genre because of the perspective that music in itself is an expression like a painting and genres are the colors.

The last thing I would ever want to do is turn NOVAkILL into a business.

Don't blame you and that's why you never "broke big". Sure you were signed independently and whatever but you never "made it" because so long as you dont treat yourself like a product on a shelf and so long as you don't treat your band like a business investment, you can count on doing laundry.
I myself chose to do laundry.

To thine own self be true.

Speaking of can't having it both ways, you either be true to yourself, or live as a civilzed conformist in society. Can't have it both ways. You can write whatever lyrics in whatever isolated underground genre you want, so long as you are a consumer, you're part of the system and the system was designed to inhibit our true self.
In fact what you consider being "true to yourself" is but one small example characterization coming from social indoctrination. You're a social construct/product in some way shape and form. To break out of that is like a battery trying to break free from a circuit. Merry Christmas and happy new year.

[vurt]

i don't do laundry

[seafire]

i don't do laundry

Good man. That's what staff are for!

[VOODOO U]

i don't do laundry

i don't do laundry

Good man. That's what staff are for!

Yeah!!! Stay doped up and stupid! Alleluia!
Don't mind me, continue on with whatever makes you feel self worth.

[BONES]

I don't understand. If you can point to me where there is a discussion on Malmsteen and "talent" i might better understand whateveŕ point you're trying to make.

Don't play stupid f**king games, it just makes you look desperate, here's where the discussion started -
You agreed with Lotus2035 when he/she/it said "Yngwie Malmsteen came out of the womb grasping a scalloped fretboard guitar (which he built in there) and instantly started playing entire Paganini concertos with one hand while ranting about how much he disliked donuts. If those aren't innate qualities then I don't know what is." by responding with "He came out of the hole of an acoustic guitar."

In the context of a thread titled "Is talent born or created", it's pretty f**king obvious what your meaning was. Of course, then you changed tack, trying to salvage your argument by attempting to conflate popularity with talent. Always a desperate, losing strategy.

It'd be a hell of a lot easier for me to write a no. 1 EBM album than it would be to write a top10 rock or pop song.

For me, certainly, but not for someone with that innate connection to the Pop aesthetic. If you don't have that connection, it's almost impossible to know what will work and what won't. You're flying blind. And it's the same for what we do - if you don't have that connection you won't understand what it is that people who like it get from it.

With the former i only need to sell 10 albums where with the latter i need to suck 100 weenies just to get a record deal and kill my way up to a number one.

I don't think Joe Dolce had to suck anything, he just had to tap into a vein that worked on a global scale. Justin Bieber didn't have to suck anything, although he may have been keen to, and neither did his mother. All they had to do was put some shit up on YouTube and they were beating the A&R guys off with a stick.

And yes, I'm saying I absolutely can write in any genre because of the perspective that music in itself is an expression like a painting and genres are the colors.

Then you don't understand music at all.

Don't blame you and that's why you never "broke big". Sure you were signed independently and whatever but you never "made it" because so long as you dont treat yourself like a product on a shelf and so long as you don't treat your band like a business investment, you can count on doing laundry.

Not really. I think it was far more about geography. I started at about the same time as Front242 and Skinny Puppy but I was on the other side of the planet and didn't even know those guys, or the genre, existed until years later. At home I could have had every A&R guy in the country come to a gig and there's not one of them would have seen a market for what I was doing, but it was definitely no worse than early Front242 and I always managed to put on a decent live show. Then I discover, 20 years after that, that the first single I released (1987) has been uploaded to YouTube a dozen or so times and someone in Belgium wants to re-release it. Which makes me wonder how it might have gone if I'd grown up in the UK or Europe, not Australia.

Speaking of can't having it both ways, you either be true to yourself, or live as a civilzed conformist in society. Can't have it both ways.

It is entirely possible to live within society without having to conform to all its strictures. All my peers, without exception, have conformed their entire lives - wife, house, children, job security, they love whatever's popular on the radio and TV, they dress "appropriately", they drive a safe car and always obey the speed limits. I do none of that, yet I get by just fine.

You can write whatever lyrics in whatever isolated underground genre you want, so long as you are a consumer, you're part of the system and the system was designed to inhibit our true self.

That doesn't mean there aren't any ways around it. It's also not so black and white. It's entirely possible to use/take what you need and not get caught up in the bullshit.

You're a social construct/product in some way shape and form.

Sure but what I don't have, which makes it easy to break away from all that, is the instinct that drives it. I am an evolutionary dead-end so the basis for all the constraints society puts upon people aren't there in me, or are only there in minute traces, so their ability to coerce conformity is extremely limited.

At our 40th reunion a few years ago, a class-mate of mine from my Army days told me my super-power was that I didn't care and he's 100% right. If you don't care, if you have no fear of consequences, society can't control you. e.g. Despite the government spending millions every year convincing people that if they speed or if they drink and drive, they will die horribly or be punished, I drive like a maniac all the time because I know that as long as I don't speed through a camera, which must be clearly signposted by law, I'll never get caught. Plus, of course, I have absolutely no fear of being in an accident because I'm not that stupid. Everyone else sees a sign that says "slow down in the wet" and they all do it, I see the same sign and say "f**k off, I know what I'm doing, you dumb c**ts". But I pay my taxes and all the rest of it because I get something of value from it.

To be clear, when I say "I don't care", I don't mean that I don't care about anything, I mean that I don't care about the rules or the consequences of ignoring them. See how many times I've been banned by the petty tyrants in this shithole, for example. I still have a very strong sense of self-preservation and a strong moral code when it comes to how I treat other people, but that comes from me and my experiences in life, not from society or anyone else.