Software vs Hardware

[pdxindy]

Right you just have multiple hardware pieces all with different layouts where the same controls like ADSR and filter are in different places and that have different menu diving systems, versus having those common controls all the same universally between plugins

Except those aren't all common controls.
Some synths have ADSR, but some have AHDSR or DADSR.
Some have a knob/slider for controlling curve. Some have individual curve controls for A,D and R. Some have a button that switches between two curve states.
Some envelopes have looping options, some do not.
Some have knob/slider for Velocity, some do not, same for keytracking.

It's impossible to elegantly account for all those options in one midi controller because the number of controls needed varies a lot... and that is just 1 envelope which is relatively simple.

Wait til you get to complex stuff. Midi controllers suck, especially at controlling multiple synths. The mouse is at least 10 times faster. The mouse is the best way to control multiple synths by far.

Hardware is good because each interface controls a single synth. It's not trying to control multiple different synths.

[IvyBirds]

What gets lost is the reality that you can use a mouse AND a great MIDI controller at the same time which is significantly faster and easier than page flipping in a plugin and menu diving in hardware.

But a lot of work to get it up and running. I don't see that it's worth it, really.

Only it's really not. The initial setup of my four Novation XLs which are the backbone of my system took about an hour several years ago

When I contemplate buying a new plugin the main factor for me is how does it sound, the next question is how good/easy is it's MIDI learn or CC assignment for various controls. If both of those are rules satisfactory relative to cost then I buy it

My hardware controllers are already preprogrammed for everything. So I sit down and start using the plugin. At this point with nothing assigned I can use them with a mouse. No effort was put into it whatever. As I start learning the synth I spend maybe 5 seconds assigning various things that seem important to their predefined and already set up control surface. Since I am programming the controls as I move along in the synth playing with patches there is minimal effort involved and again I can always use a mouse same as you. It might take weeks or even months to fully configure the MiDI CC Assignments in the plugin but it's all done in 5 seconds intervals space out over time. It's like the old adage how do you eat and elephant? One bite at a time. So the first time I grab the filter cutoff for example I move my mouse over it. Right click, select MIDI learn, move the knob for filter cutoff and it's done with pretty much zero effort on a few seconds. Then let's say I want to assign envelope 2 to the filter, again I already know exactly where those knobs will be and they are already programmed so the ADSR controls for envelope 2 are already programmed with no effort again in seconds

So now I can trigger notes with my right hand on the keyboard and reach up with my left and adjust the cutoff and resonance for the filter and make any changes I want to its envelope. I can do all that no matter what page is on the screen or even if that plugin happens to be minimized and I am using another plugin full screen

I don't have to reinvent the wheel everytime I get a new plugjn the wheel is already there

I am not making my MIDI controllers conform to each and every plugin, I am making each and every plugin conform to to my predefined and pre set up controllers

[pdxindy]

For me, one of the most important aspects of a synth interface is the ability to see all the current settings at a glance. Most modern hardware can't give you that but pretty much every softsynth can.

The mouse and screen is by far the best visual interface for controlling synths. Nothing else comes close.

[cvieira]

ten years ago a pro couldn't distinguish hardware from software:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/na ... nts-monark

[Uncle E]

But it's not really complex my sound design workstations has a computer monitor, a pair of audio monitors, an cheap Arturia 49 key MIDI Controller and 4 Novation Launch Control XLs

Do you use DIVA CTRL with them?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/au ... -u-he-diva

[IvyBirds]

Right you just have multiple hardware pieces all with different layouts where the same controls like ADSR and filter are in different places and that have different menu diving systems, versus having those common controls all the same universally between plugins

Except those aren't all common controls.
Some synths have ADSR, but some have AHDSR or DADSR.
Some have a knob/slider for controlling curve. Some have individual curve controls for A,D and R. Some have a button that switches between two curve states.
Some envelopes have looping options, some do not.
Some have knob/slider for Velocity, some do not, same for keytracking.

ALL of that is super easy with my system as I explained earlier. I have the capacity to have up to 8 eight stage envelopes built in or up to sixteen 4 stage envelopes and you are forgetting that I also still have a mouse

For example is a synth just has a simple ADSR controls which many Synths do. Envelope 1 is the first four faders on the bottom. Each and every time on every synth. Envelope 2 is the next set of four faders each and every time. Envelope 3 is the set of four knobs directly above the four faders of envelope 1 etc

For AHDSR envelopes again that is super easy. That has 5 controls so envelope 1 is the first 5 faders on the bottom, envelope 2 is the first 5 knobs above that, envelope 3 is the first 5 knobs above that, envelope 4 is the first 5 knobs about it. If there are envelopes 5-8 that's easy I just hit user 4 and bring up the next page where 5-8 are programmed using the same exact layout. Same for DADSR

For things like the DX7 emulations where each envelope has four "L" values and four "R" values much like with AHDSR they each get a row of controls and I can assign up to 8

It couldn't be simpler as if you can define an envelope using the initials for each stage like AHDSR you just assign a control for each initial left to write

It's impossible to elegantly account for all those options in one midi controller because the number of controls needed varies a lot... and that is just 1 envelope which is relatively simple.

Not really and my goal is not to account for every possible scenario just most of them. My system handles perfectly probably 95+% of all plugins, for the other less than 5% I just use a mouse

For example I use HALion7 quite a bit each envelope in HALion7 is a multi-segment envelope with up to 512 nodes. In scenarios like that a mouse is the perfect tool so that is what I use. Even with envelopes with different curves I would just select which curve by clicking on it with a mouse but each point in the envelope will still have to have a value assigned to it, in pretty much every scenario with these I could change those values with my envelope controller but if I couldn't I would just use the mouse

Wait til you get to complex stuff. Midi controllers suck, especially at controlling multiple synths. The mouse is at least 10 times faster. The mouse is the best way to control multiple synths by far.

I use complex Synths all the time, it's why I use controllers

Hardware is good because each interface controls a single synth. It's not trying to control multiple different synths.

Hardware is weak because each interface is different and you have learn the layout differently for each one to develop. You have to learn a different physical layout for each and every control.

Wait til you get to complex stuff. Hardware sucks for complex stuff because you don't have enough physical controls and end up menu diving and the assignments of the knobs and faders change because each one has to control multiple things

For example in my setup I have 64 dedicated physical controls that are assigned full time just to the envelope section. I can get to all of them at the same exact time without any menu diving or button presses if I want to they are just there ready to go. I have never seen a hardware synth that does that

The mouse is the best way to control multiple synths by far

Only it's not. A mouse along with an optimized controller system is the best way to control multiple synths by far

[IvyBirds]

But it's not really complex my sound design workstations has a computer monitor, a pair of audio monitors, an cheap Arturia 49 key MIDI Controller and 4 Novation Launch Control XLs

Do you use DIVA CTRL with them?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/au ... -u-he-diva

No I don't, however that is a good example of what a Launch Control XL can do.

For me however all that is really doing is just adding unnecessary complexity and is focused on a single plugin.

I just use plain MIDI CC's and MIDI channels that are in the standard MIDI 1.0 spec. He created that with BOME and uses scripts

My goal is to have a universal set up to use alongside a mouse and screen, not replace the mouse and screen

Diva like every U-he synth I have tried actually has a pretty robust MIDI Learn and MIDI CC control matrix options so CCs are fine

[pdxindy]

For AHDSR envelopes again that is super easy. That has 5 controls so envelope 1 is the first 5 faders on the bottom, envelope 2 is the first 5 knobs above that, envelope 3 is the first 5 knobs above that, envelope 4 is the first 5 knobs about it. If there are envelopes 5-8 that's easy I just hit user 4 and bring up the next page where 5-8 are programmed using the same exact layout. Same for DADSR

For things like the DX7 emulations where each envelope has four "L" values and four "R" values much like with AHDSR they each get a row of controls and I can assign up to 8

It couldn't be simpler as if you can define an envelope using the initials for each stage like AHDSR you just assign a control for each initial left to write

Thanks, that made my morning... couldn't be simpler... I had such a good laugh.

Seriously, maybe you are a savant and it's simple for you.

That system would be unworkable for me. I would never remember all those changing knobs for each synth and that was only envelopes. Each synth has different LFO's, different Osc's, Filters, etc. I would never develop muscle memory and it would be an unworkable nightmare, that would constantly suck my mental focus instead of the task itself.

And such a system as you're describing, is completely incapable of dealing with many Oscillators in modern softsynths. For example drawing waveforms for a wavetable, or partials for an additive Osc, or editing samples. Then there's drawing MSEG's, or wiring any kind of semi-modular synth like Bazille or adding modules in a modular like VCV. And of course it would not deal well with most mod matrices.

On many synths, the mouse would still be needed for like 75% of sound design. At that point, it takes less mental energy just to stick with the mouse. Then there's also no need to waste time and energy for setting up such a complex system as you describe, nor waste the precious desk space on something that only covers a small amount of sound design on modern softsynths.

[SoftSynthLover99]

No lol that is just the idea that you have conjured in your own mind from misunderstanding several post. All I was saying is that a hobbyist may not see any benefit in spending for example $10K-$20K on a hardware synth when music is just a hobby and not a career.



But people who take music as a career and make money and work with talented individuals on a daily basis, are more likely to purchase hardware and expensive gear because it's what they do for a living. They don't care if a plugin "almost" sounds like the hardware. They are just gonna use the hardware because they know it will sound right vs wasting time comparing plugins.

So what you are saying again is hardware is better because you say so and if you are a "professional" you know this but if you are just a hobbyist that means you are just ignorant

And that's the issue you have no proof of this and it's infact the exact opposite of how actual professionals work

You know who has the best Instagram hardware synth setups? Hobbyists who have synth museums. You know who doesn't? Actual professionals. You think Hans Zimmer when he is working on the next Hollywood blockbusters says to himself, gee I am just a moron using plugins if I were a professional and not a hobbyist I would know better? Of course not

You think a guy who plays basketball a few times a week at the local gym, takes basketball as serious as a professional NBA player? Of course not so likewise a professional producer artist or songwriter is gonna treat a music career more serious than your average hobbyist, and that includes investing in better gear as your career grows.

Cheers!

And again that's your bullshit you are desperately trying to make the point the somehow Hardware Synths are more professional they are not. You have said they are faster again they are not. You have given no actual benefits as to why hardware use means you are somehow more serious

As for basketball, awesome. If you love basketball you can buy the exact basketballs that NBA players use have no choice in and is decided by someone else. You can wear the exact shoes they wear designed by someone else that they get paid money to endorse. You can wear the exact same jersey and shorts they wear on the court again something they don't choose but are the uniforms chosen by the team, that needs to confirm to the standards and endorsements used by the NBA

Not sure what that has to do with Synths however

But again I am still waiting for you to show me where any synth sounds on any Taylor Swift record could not have been made with plugins

Again that should be easy since the people who worked on them you think care more than hobbyists so that should be an easy task

Please let me know so I can listen to them as I browse Instagram looking at synth setups full of hardware synths owned by hobbyists.

Until then I will listen to Platinum selling records made by hobbyists you think are not professionals made with plugins, or maybe watch some videos of music festivals with artists using laptops on stage. Again you think they are not serious or professional

Maybe they should invest in better gear as they entertain millions, maybe is Hans Zimmer did that he would have made millions of dollars, and earned Grammy awards and Oscars

But maybe not
.

Funny you mentioned Hans, at 5:04 in this video here he talks about his decision between "choosing between a minimoog or a car" and says "I still don't drive". And right after that at 5:28 he says "Look if you take this music thing seriously, you're gonna want to have a serious box of tricks".

Now how many hobbyist do you think are gonna choose the MiniMoog over buying a new car that they will need to go to work? The MiniMoog IS Hans work, so to him the decision is different than a hobbyist. That is the difference between a hobbyist and a professional who takes music seriously. From Hans himself

[SoftSynthLover99]

I think I'm headed towards either the Analog Rhytm or something like the Perkons HD-01 myself soon. ITB drums are quick and easy but I would love to experiment with analog drums a bit.

Is it the drums themselves or the sequencer you like most on the Elektron? From the brief demos I've heard it does have a certain punch on the kick drum.

If you just want some standard drum sounds, there are cheaper options, including ITB. I can get great kicks ITB for example.

The strength of the Rytm for me, is the combination of everything together. Each voice can layer analog machines with samples and then through the analog filter and other circuits. And then of course the sequencer and it can sample which is a world unto itself.

IMO, the Rytm excels when you want to go off the beaten path. That's where I live. I love making ambient rhythmic beds with percussive sounds and bass. Then the whole thing comes alive with the p-locking and it's organic and could be some musicians playing strange instruments live.

The Rytm has analog distortion and compressor, and p-locking the settings for those is glorious. It can get so raw and untamed it puts a huge grin on my face. I have 2 Rytm's because I like them so much and also because the analog distortion and compressor combo cannot be bypassed. So if I want to grunge out but keep a few voices clean, I would either have to multi-track, or use two Rytms (or a Rytm and something else).

There are solid performance controls, and in many cases, it's best just to record straight to audio because this box does stuff that can never be repeated. The ways that the individual voices combine to hit the compressor while p-locking stuff... I've never heard anything like it in software.

To sum up, if you want a basic drum track, don't waste your money. If you want to go to wild places nobody has ever gone before, then the Rytm is the best freakin machine ever made.

Thanks for the info, I think I may have to pull the trigger on one coming up soon for a specific project. Sounds exactly like what I need out of a drum machine!

[pdxindy]

Thanks for the info, I think I may have to pull the trigger on one coming up soon for a specific project. Sounds exactly like what I need out of a drum machine!

Cool... if you do, post back your experiences.

[Funky40]

I mean, i see the point of Love towards HW.

Can I assume that means you've never owned any? Because if you had, you'd probably understand why it such a terrible, terrible idea. Really, it is.

No, you can´t.
And i even don´t understand what you´re talking about ?
What´s the terrible idea you´re refering to ?

I have been a HW-guy only !
I´ve had several HW-setups. And in fact stll have to some degree.
Though, i never had stands full of analog Synths, or stands full with any other sorts of Synths with a keybed.

[martiu]

software wins every time, look into fapfilter, is the best

[SoftSynthLover99]

Also the official Spectrasonics website has gotten a bit heavy handed in the marketing of their software. Just because a producer or artist used Spectrasonics in the past, doesn't mean they've used it on every single project they've ever worked on moving forward. But seems spectrasonics is claiming they do.

Would be interested to know how they actually know which projects the artist or producer used spectrasonics software on as well. Are the artist/producers sending them session notes? Are Spectrasonics asking the artist/producer directly? If not this seems a bit disingenuous to claim your software made it onto everything just because a person has used the software in the past. https://www.spectrasonics.net/company/featured-work.php

[El°HYM]

But it's not really complex my sound design workstations has a computer monitor, a pair of audio monitors, an cheap Arturia 49 key MIDI Controller and 4 Novation Launch Control XLs

Do you use DIVA CTRL with them?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/au ... -u-he-diva

Hmmm.


P.S. Sir BONO is obviously a Tangerine Dream kind of dude!