For you, what’s more important—the journey or the destination? And for your DAW?

[jancivil]

Aimlessness may inform a composition, but I personally hope to apply it to some end lest it be an evaporating fart-fest finally

[mjolnir]

if i don't have a finished product after all that fuss, then i feel inadequate.
however, if i can't have fun while making the audio product, then i get too bored and quit early.

so, for me, some kind of a balance, but the finished product is more important and i save my recordings.
i don't want to "noodle around". i want to actually make and complete tunes saved as hi-fi.

but, i must say that the programs with proper ergonomics are so refreshingly effect that it makes working a lot more fun.

for example, i like quantized music. because of that, when i compose i usually want quantizing on by default. but if the DAW defaults to a bad auto quantize setting then i have to do too much menu diving to change it (in REAPER for example). during that time, i might forget or be at risk of forgetting my musical ideas. but in something else (LMMS, EnergyXT), I just jamm in the ideas at the grid setting and it's fine; there's no menu diving. i can then do the next idea jamm / recording, and again, and again, and again, and keep my musical ideas saved quickly. that's what feels good to me and then i feel better about the DAW.

i love REAPER, but i fear that the devs are never going to make input quantizing the default (ON) and their current defaults are very wimpy (1/8th notes instead of 16th notes). you might think that it doesn't matter, but really it does for some styles. i'm trying to make something more like breakbeat industrial than "Mary Had A Little Lamb".

but then again, my skills are not so good, so a lot of this is purely "academic", like Linux distro-hopping.

[_leras]

Regarding the subject line: Like most things in life, the most important thing looking forward is the destination, but the most important thing looking back is the journey.

Nah, the journey for any piece of recorded music is largely irrelevant. Most people will never hear about the journey even if they like the song/track. And often it is unremarkable in electronic music, though sometimes it's nice to hear about how a song you like was made especially when a band is involved.

The most important thing looking back is the end result and where that takes you.

And None of that has anything to do with which DAW a person uses. People make amazing music with almost all the DAWs.

[_leras]

This path based, goal based stuff is nonsense.

They all have mostly the same aim.

Perhaps some are slightly more tailored to loop based or electronic music, and other have better features for multi track recorded audio. Some are clunky, some are very fluid (Bitwig).

But the all have pretty much the same thing in mind. I'm sure I could make and record music in almost any DAW and be fairly happy.

[DaveClark]

Regarding the subject line: Like most things in life, the most important thing looking forward is the destination, but the most important thing looking back is the journey.

Nah, the journey for any piece of recorded music is largely irrelevant. Most people will never hear about the journey even if they like the song/track. And often it is unremarkable in electronic music, though sometimes it's nice to hear about how a song you like was made especially when a band is involved.

The most important thing looking back is the end result and where that takes you.

And None of that has anything to do with which DAW a person uses. People make amazing music with almost all the DAWs.

This was a peronal reflection, having nothing to do with what other people will hear about the journey, etc. Unless you can prove that someone doesn't really have an expressed belief or impression, it is extremely difficult to come up with a valid counter-argument.

[xbitz]

^^^ It's quite easy to refute—just think about why Ableton Live still doesn't have keyboard reconfiguration options after all these years, in return, there are countless upvotes in the Ableton Live beta test for 'please don’t remove the old shortcuts,' because in AL, people aren’t there to experiment or learn new things ... AL is a 'get the job done' DAW wherever you are in the world, always the same way

It's the same as the difference between synths—there's the pre-wired 'because everyone will use it this way anyway,' the semi-modular, and the fully modular. Exactly the same reason applies to DAWs as well.

[whyterabbyt]

just think about why Ableton Live still doesn't have keyboard reconfiguration options after all these years, in return, there are countless upvotes in the Ableton Live beta test for 'please don’t remove the old shortcuts,' because in AL, people aren’t there to experiment or learn new things ... AL is a 'get the job done' DAW wherever you are in the world, always the same way

Oh yes I am. In fact Im even reconfiguring the Live keyboard shortcuts.

Not that reconfiguring keyboard shortcuts is a particularly compelling argument for your case, TBH, I feel its kinda cherry-picked. That's UI customisation, and doesnt correlate to the capability of a DAW for audio and music experimentation, which, to me, are far more important than, say, Reaper's much-vaunted but pointless and endless unicorn-barf Themes.

For example only takes a few minutes seeing what sort of devices exist built in M4L versus the kind of plugins that exist in the larger audio world to see how much experimentation and new things is actually being done with Live.... Where are all the custom experimental synths effects (and now MIDI processing) for Logic that support your theory that its better for that, for example? Who's the Dillon Bastan of Cubase?

I'd pretty much say that if you havent rated any DAW that has a high-level language API for system control, and audio and MIDI processing as more capable for experimentation, then you've intrinsically missed the point.

[mjolnir]

we don't all use DAWs the same ways, nor for the same purposes, and of course we don't all have the same aptitudes.
to assume otherwise is insane.

[whyterabbyt]

we don't all use DAWs the same ways, nor for the same purposes, and of course we don't all have the same aptitudes.

well of course. that's probably why people here sit around all the time arguing why the stuff that they have (that was actually built and designed by someone else) is so much better than the stuff that someone else bought (that was also actually built and designed by someone else.)

[xbitz]

just think about why Ableton Live still doesn't have keyboard reconfiguration options after all these years, in return, there are countless upvotes in the Ableton Live beta test for 'please don’t remove the old shortcuts,' because in AL, people aren’t there to experiment or learn new things ... AL is a 'get the job done' DAW wherever you are in the world, always the same way

Oh yes I am. In fact Im even reconfiguring the Live keyboard shortcuts.

Not that reconfiguring keyboard shortcuts is a particularly compelling argument for your case, TBH, I feel its kinda cherry-picked. That's UI customisation, and doesnt correlate to the capability of a DAW for audio and music experimentation, which, to me, are far more important than, say, Reaper's much-vaunted but pointless and endless unicorn-barf Themes.

For example only takes a few minutes seeing what sort of devices exist built in M4L versus the kind of plugins that exist in the larger audio world to see how much experimentation and new things is actually being done with Live.... Where are all the custom experimental synths effects (and now MIDI processing) for Logic that support your theory that its better for that, for example? Who's the Dillon Bastan of Cubase?

I'd pretty much say that if you havent rated any DAW that has a high-level language API for system control, and audio and MIDI processing as more capable for experimentation, then you've intrinsically missed the point.

Well, M4L was needed in AL precisely to reach a community that values the journey itself, so don’t argue against yourself. And cause and effect shouldn't be reversed either—AL isn't goal-oriented because you can't customize the key mappings, but rather, you can't customize them because it's goal-oriented. But let's not get lost in the details
The fact that it’s not possible is just an indication of why it isn’t possible—a drop in the ocean from which we might draw conclusions, perhaps.

Nowhere in Logic, but as I mentioned, just as AL needed to be extended, Logic also needs it in with a Reaktor + Toybox combo. But this could also go into Cubase, and in FLS, this would be Patcher. But this is just nitpicking, let's not focus on the trees but the forest, please. The dating analogy was the right one—if you're goal-oriented, your DAW will be too? I was interested in the human aspect ... Just a bit of kitchen philosophy to liven up the forum

We could also look at it this way: someone with a goal-oriented nature will inevitably cross the ocean between Europe and America by plane—or by ocean liner to enjoy the journey as well

[whyterabbyt]

Well, M4L was needed in AL precisely to reach a community that values the journey itself, so don’t argue against yourself.

ah, you're just being a disingenuous arsehole, i get it now.

[Michael L]

Under logical cross-examination, Meta's AI chatbot admitted to me that it was deliberately deceiving users into believing it had good human judgment, while in reality its judgment is highly biased as a result of the lack of diversity among its algo programmers. This thread is a preview of such "next-level-nonsense" we can look forward to as humans let AI do our thinking and then defend its silly results.

[xbitz]

Well, M4L was needed in AL precisely to reach a community that values the journey itself, so don’t argue against yourself.

ah, you're just being a disingenuous arsehole, i get it now.

ooops, what did I say? English is not my mother tongue! The problem is 'argue'? let's swap it for 'logical refutations' sry sry sry

[xbitz]

Under logical cross-examination, Meta's AI chatbot admitted to me that it was deliberately deceiving users into believing it had good human judgment, while in reality its judgment is highly biased as a result of the lack of diversity among its algo programmers. This thread is a preview of such "next-level-nonsense" we can look forward to as humans let AI do our thinking and then defend its silly results.

I should copy the original ChatGPT conversation here now, but let's just say that I stated my opinion. I tried to figure out what bothers me about Ableton Live beyond the fact that devices are not in the mixer. I even posted this in the AL beta test forum. My idea was to identify what I subconsciously dislike about AL and Studio One, and ChatGPT’s task was to refute this... that there's a table at the end, let that not mislead anyone..but, it might just be that their UI is as ugly as sin!

And now that we've discussed these oh-so-important questions and brought the usual personal attacks to the KVRAudio level, please, back on topic, so far, o far, we’ve established that every DAW is the same, and AI is just an evlil talking parrot(Jago from Aladdin) - I already knew that.

Screenshot 2025-03-08 at 14.49.36.png

And even so, it has more sensible responses. Alright, I won’t go on the offensive Don't be rude, stay on topic, please please please

[Michael L]

Under logical cross-examination, Meta's AI chatbot admitted to me that it was deliberately deceiving users into believing it had good human judgment, while in reality its judgment is highly biased as a result of the lack of diversity among its algo programmers. This thread is a preview of such "next-level-nonsense" we can look forward to as humans let AI do our thinking and then defend its silly results.

I should copy the original ChatGPT conversation here now, but let's just say that I stated my opinion. I tried to figure out what bothers me about Ableton Live beyond the fact that devices are not in the mixer. I even posted this in the AL beta test forum. My idea was to identify what I subconsciously dislike about AL and Studio One, and ChatGPT’s task was to refute this... that there's a table at the end, let that not mislead anyone..but, it might just be that their UI is as ugly as sin!

And now that we've discussed these oh-so-important questions and brought the usual personal attacks to the KVRAudio level, please, back on topic, so far, o far, we’ve established that every DAW is the same, and AI is just an evlil talking parrot(Jago from Aladdin) - I already knew that.

Screenshot 2025-03-08 at 14.49.36.png
And even so, it has more sensible responses. Alright, I won’t go on the offensive Don't be rude, stay on topic, please please please

Thank you for such a good example of “next-level-nonsense”!