Is talent born or created with hard work and practice

[VOODOO U]

Don't play stupid f**king games, it just makes you look desperate, here's where the discussion started -
You agreed with Lotus2035 when he/she/it said "Yngwie Malmsteen came out of the womb grasping a scalloped fretboard guitar (which he built in there) and instantly started playing entire Paganini concertos with one hand while ranting about how much he disliked donuts. If those aren't innate qualities then I don't know what is." by responding with "He came out of the hole of an acoustic guitar."

In the context of a thread titled "Is talent born or created", it's pretty f**king obvious what your meaning was. Of course, then you changed tack, trying to salvage your argument by attempting to conflate popularity with talent. Always a desperate, losing strategy.

Thank you sir for informing me of my trajectory. I thought I was being facetious in the parley silly me. It is an honor to be your adjutant in this regiment.

For me, certainly, but not for someone with that innate connection to the Pop aesthetic.

How would you know if you don't have an innate connection to the pop aesthetic?

I don't think Joe Dolce had to suck anything, he just had to tap into a vein that worked on a global scale.

You don't know Joe Dolce and what it took for him to achieve whatever success he has. Secondly i can be confident nobody here in the States knows who the f**k Joe Dolce is so what he did has not worked on a global scale.

Justin Bieber didn't have to suck anything,

Is that what he told you? What a liar.

All they had to do was put some shit up on YouTube and they were beating the A&R guys off with a stick.

You're a pathetic gullible layman if you believe one can achieve super stardom by simply putting shit up on a f**king YouTube channel without financial backing from a major investor.
Those who got popular from Youtube were backed by millionaire investors be it a company or some rich goon.
It's like American Idol - it's a vehicle to market pre -signed "talent".

Then you don't understand music at all.

I'm looking forward to your YouTube series of videos educating humanity in helping them understand music.

Not really. I think it was far more about geography

Tell that to crowded house. Icehouse. Inxs. Midnight oil. Men at work. Silverchair (yuk).
And don't feed me BS that the genre of music wasn't marketable. You just didn't have songs worth pushing.

At home I could have had every A&R guy in the country come to a gig and there's not one of them would have seen a market for what I was doing,

Because your songs weren't strong enough.

It is entirely possible to live within society without having to conform to all its strictures.

Even homeless people are consumers. Many buy drugs which is a bigger market than hamburgers and hot dogs.
As long as you buy in any way shape or form (consumerism), you are a supportive conformist.

I do none of that, yet I get by just fine.

Yet you buy groceries, buy gas, buy clothes, bought a computer, have a bank account, earn an income etc etc etc.
You're a consumer like all of us and consumers are conformists.

That doesn't mean there aren't any ways around it.

Thieves steal bought products. Those robbed will be forced to rebuy what was stolen which means thieves assist in consumption.
I already covered homeless people. Even if they don't buy dope, they buy food with whatever money donated to rhem.
Locked up criminals eat and so assist with the circulation of goods (consumerism).
Just because you don't drive the speed limits doesn't make you a rebel exempt from the social construct.

It's entirely possible to use/take what you need and not get caught up in the bullshit.

Using and taking what you need *is* getribg caught in the bullshit. There is no self sufficiency. One way or another, you need big brother.

I am an evolutionary dead-end so the basis for all the constraints society puts upon people aren't there in me, or are only there in minute traces, so their ability to coerce conformity is extremely limited.

That's fine with them. Any limited form of conformity assists. It's more fuel, no matter how little, to the fire.

my super-power was that I didn't care and he's 100% right.

That's not a super power. It's simply an attitude and it doesn't absolve you from paying rent.

If you don't care, if you have no fear of consequences, society can't control you

Everyone is fearful otherwise we'd all be suicidal.

. e.g. Despite the government spending millions every year convincing people that if they speed or if they drink and drive, they will die horribly or be punished, I drive like a maniac all the time because I know that as long as I don't speed through a camera, which must be clearly signposted by law, I'll never get caught.

See? You're afraid of getting caught.

[vurt]

shuddup and do your laundry!

[BONES]

How would you know if you don't have an innate connection to the pop aesthetic?

How about because they like that shit? Because it connects with them in a way that Death Metal doesn't? Do you think Michael Jackson disliked the style of music he made or that he felt no connection to it? Did The Beatles?

i can be confident nobody here in the States knows who the f**k Joe Dolce is so what he did has not worked on a global scale.

This may shock you to know but there are other parts of the world besides the US. It may also shock you to know that Joe Dolce is an American, so there's at least one Yank who knows him, three if you count his parents. But Samuel L. Jackson obviously didn't -

You're a pathetic gullible layman if you believe one can achieve super stardom by simply putting shit up on a f**king YouTube channel without financial backing from a major investor.

Yet that's exactly what happened. You couldn't do it today but there are many examples of people who got onto the YT bandwagon early on and made millions from it without any financial backing to get started. People like Pewdy Pie and that kid in Melbourne whose parents made millions by filming him opening presents.

I'm looking forward to your YouTube series of videos educating humanity in helping them understand music.

What sort of sad f**king loser has a YouTube channel?

Tell that to crowded house. Icehouse. Inxs. Midnight oil. Men at work. Silverchair (yuk).

All from mainstream genres, at least as popular here as anywhere else.

And don't feed me BS that the genre of music wasn't marketable. You just didn't have songs worth pushing.

It's not about being marketable, it's about having a base from which to "push" anything. I've never had any shortage of people willing to help. My first single was paid for by a couple of fans, for example.

Because your songs weren't strong enough.

And yet 30 years later, someone completely unknown to me, from the other side of the world, wanted to re-released a handful of them on vinyl. So whilst there wasn't a market here at home, it seems there was enough of one in Europe to maintain interest for 30 years. How often has anyone approached you to re-release anything you've done, 30 years later?

Even homeless people are consumers.

Everyone is a consumer. If you don't consume food, for example. you'll die. If you live in a cold climate and don't buy warm clothing for the winter, you'll die.

As long as you buy in any way shape or form (consumerism), you are a supportive conformist.

So where do you get your food? How do you get from one place to another? More to the point, why wouldn't you want to take advantage of the things society has to offer that improve your own life? It only becomes an issue of conformity because of herd instinct, which comes from individuals, not from society as a whole. People have a need to conform, a need to hide in the middle of the herd and not be noticed by predators, it's not some vast conspiracy and there is no mechanism by which anyone is forced into it. You're part if it because you have a deep-seated need to be part of it.

Thieves steal bought products. Those robbed will be forced to rebuy what was stolen which means thieves assist in consumption.

Every living thing consumes resources. It's how you know you're not dead yet.

I already covered homeless people.

That's very kind of you. I just walk past them, I don't believe in validating their lifestyle by making it easier for them (nor would I consciously do anything to make it harder). They can sink or swim on their own. Like so many things, it's not my problem and you can't make it my problem, nor can you make me feel guilty about it.

Just because you don't drive the speed limits doesn't make you a rebel exempt from the social construct.

I don't consider myself a rebel, I just live my life according to my rules, not anyone else's. By and large, my rules are more conservative than most so there are plenty of things society has no problem with that I wouldn't put up with.

There is no self sufficiency.

Exactly, so why pretend otherwise? It's simple efficiency and without it we'd have stripped the planet clean decades ago.

That's fine with them. Any limited form of conformity assists.

And what's wrong with that? Is everyone else your enemy?

That's not a super power. It's simply an attitude and it doesn't absolve you from paying rent.

It is because I'll do a lot of things no-one else would, because I don't care about the consequences.

Everyone is fearful otherwise we'd all be suicidal.

All balanced by your fear of death or fear of f**king it up and having to live with the consequences of that. I think suicidal people have a mental defect, it just doesn't make any rational sense.

See? You're afraid of getting caught.

No, as I said, I have no fear of being caught because the cameras are signposted and I'm not an idiot.

[jancivil]

"innate connection to the pop aesthetic"

is a string of words resulting in no meaning whatsoever

[harryupbabble]

practice?
i`m not sure

i mean i look at iggy pop and i think...
yup that guy may be practicing

but what though?
the art of nunchucks?

[VOODOO U]

How about because they like that shit?

So? Phil Anselmo is a Sniths fan and that didn't stop Pantera from making great non-pop albums.

Because it connects with them in a way that Death Metal doesn't?

Again, you don't know that. You're speaking for others and sound arrogant and stupid.

Do you think Michael Jackson disliked the style of music he made or that he felt no connection to it? Did The Beatles?

I can't speak for them but from observation I would say MJ and the Beatles loved the style of music they were doing and thus were connected to it.

This may shock you to know but there are other parts of the world besides the US.

Yes and? It may shock you ro know the U.S. is part of that world too. And nobody knows who the f**k Joe Dolce is here in this part of the world called the U.S. and I'll add Canada and all of South America to that list.

Yet that's exactly what happened.

Well I'm sure the powers that be in the entertainment field are happy to know that there are gullible morons like you who fall for every stupidity thrown out there. I'm surprised you didn't audition for America's Got Talent.

You couldn't do it today but there are many examples of people who got onto the YT bandwagon early on and made millions from it without any financial backing to get started.

That's just marketing to make people (idiots) believe that there is the possibility to be a super famous millionaire by making a YouTube video.
Anyone who appeared to have any success from Youtube was heavily funded covertly. It's strategic marketing that works on brainless idiots. You can thank me later for enlightning you.

People like Pewdy Pie and that kid in Melbourne whose parents made millions by filming him opening presents.

Sigh.

What sort of sad f**king loser has a YouTube channel?

Riiiiiiiiiight.

It's not about being marketable, it's about having a base from which to "push" anything.

And that base are the songs. Your songs weren't a strong enough base to work with initially. I worked A&R and Publicity and the only thing outside of solicited matrrial that gets you in the door are the songs. Even a strong fan base won't do it if there aren't songs worth pushing.

How often has anyone approached you to re-release anything you've done, 30 years later?

Zero considering i don't have anything out there that i wrote 30 years ago because I was too busy living other bands' dreams filling in on guitar or bass. Hey at least it got me opening for major bands. Anyhow,
when i say your songs aren't strong enough, I mean in the early stages of the band there was no major interest to back the songs. Does that mean you suck??? You'll have to ask others on that one but it's not what I'm saying to you. It's business. But who knows maybe 30 yeas later you'll reach a wider audience.

Everyone is a consumer. If you don't consume food, for example. you'll die.

Yes I'm quite aware of that. It was my initial point.

If you live in a cold climate and don't buy warm clothing for the winter, you'll die.

Oooh i like that one. Here's another: if you pick up a phone and answer it, it has been answered.

So where do you get your food?

Hunt like all other fellow earthly beings do and grow it. Although nature takes care of the latter if we could just leave her the f**k alone.

How do you get from one place to another?

Did you know the Kalahari tribe in Africa have a certain fruit that they consume which allows them to run for days without needing additional food and water? They run towards areas where they ca hunt meat. And of course Big Brother has taken over most of their lands to get a hold of this fruit and sell it as diet pills here in western culture.
Anyhow, they use their feet.
Dan Karnazes wrote a book called 50/50 where he talks about running 50 marathons in 50 days.
I forget the exact details but on his final run he missed a flight from the east coast heading back to california. So he ran across i think 3 or 4 states heading west before taking the rest of the way back home by plane.
That may seem like a far-fetched idea to those who consume the shit food we eat.

More to the point, why wouldn't you want to take advantage of the things society has to offer that improve your own life?

You tell me. You're the rebel outcast living by your own rules with no need for society. I'm sure Johnny Rotten is envious.

You're part if it because you have a deep-seated need to be part of it.

As do you. Otherwise you wouldn't be online promoting your music.

That's very kind of you. I just walk past them, I don't believe in validating their lifestyle by making it easier for them (nor would I consciously do anything to make it harder). They can sink or swim on their own. Like so many things, it's not my problem and you can't make it my problem, nor can you make me feel guilty about it.

You just love talking about yourself don't you.

I don't consider myself a rebel, I just live my life according to my rules, not anyone else's.

You'd be in jail or dead if that were true. Stop trying to prerend you're a rebel. You can't have anything you got without someone else giving you that privilege.

By and large, my rules are more conservative than most so there are plenty of things society has no problem with that I wouldn't put up with.

There you go, it's not "your rules", it's society's rules that you agree to put up with.

And what's wrong with that? Is everyone else your enemy?

You tell me. You're the non-conformist playing by your own rules.

No, as I said, I have no fear of being caught because the cameras are signposted and I'm not an idiot.

Speed through the cameras. You won't. Because you're afraid. That's the inital point. Everybody has fear. Otherwise we'd be suicidal. God i love repeating myself.

[BONES]

So? Phil Anselmo is a Sniths fan and that didn't stop Pantera from making great non-pop albums.

I don't quite see the connection. The Smiths are a rock band and Pantera are a rock band.

Again, you don't know that. You're speaking for others and sound arrogant and stupid.

No, I am speculating. Of course I can't know that to a certainty but I'd put money on being right about it.

I can't speak for them but from observation I would say MJ and the Beatles loved the style of music they were doing and thus were connected to it.

Exactly.

Well I'm sure the powers that be in the entertainment field are happy to know that there are gullible morons like you who fall for every stupidity thrown out there.

Saying the same thing twice doesn't make you any less wrong but it definitely makes you look more stupid. If you want to change my mind, provide some f**king evidence to back-up your story. Because I can point you to JB's Wikipedia page to back up my version of events (even though it's a little different from how I'd heard it previously).

Anyone who appeared to have any success from Youtube was heavily funded covertly.

Again, f**king prove it. Offer some evidence. Or even just explain who has benefitted from PewDiePie's on-line popularity to the extent they would have set him up. Ditto for the kid in Melbourne. What you're saying simply makes no sense in those cases.

It's strategic marketing that works on brainless idiots.

That's what it became but that's not how it started.

And that base are the songs.

I forgot that you're American and everything has to be explained in minute detail for there to be any hope of you understanding any of it. The base is your potential audience, which can be huge for mainstream genres or all but non-existent for more obscure, localised genres. That's how we've been able to top alternative charts in Europe but can't get more than 20 people to a gig in our home town. That's why Joe Dolce topped charts throughout the Civilised World but not in humourless, backwards countries like the USA or Bolivia.

Your songs weren't a strong enough base to work with initially. I worked A&R and Publicity and the only thing outside of solicited matrrial that gets you in the door are the songs. Even a strong fan base won't do it if there aren't songs worth pushing.

Again, chart-topping songs and my very first single being re-pressed on the other side of the planet, 35 years later. That kind of works against your rather sad attempt at insult, doesn't it? How many song have you had in the charts alongside Taylor Swift?

Zero... because I was too busy wrecking other bands' dreams (by) filling in on guitar or bass.

There, I fixed that for you.

Hunt like all other fellow earthly beings do and grow it.

And how would that go with 8 billion people all doing the same? It's no longer efficient, we'd have gone extinct millennia ago without agriculture.

Did you know the Kalahari tribe in Africa have a certain fruit that they consume which allows them to run for days without needing additional food and water?

Talk about gullible.... Sheesh! I assume you are talking about the San Bushmen? They consume the branches of the Hoodia Gordonii plant, a cactus-like food. But they have to eat it every day to get the nourishment they need, it's nutritious but it's no wonder food. There is certainly no scientific evidence it is an effective appetite suppressant, which is what I's been marketed as.

You're the rebel outcast living by your own rules with no need for society. I'm sure Johnny Rotten is envious.

No, I take what I need and ignore the rest.

As do you. Otherwise you wouldn't be online promoting your music.

Gotta do something to pass the time and you don't see me doing a whole lot of promotion of my music at all.

You just love talking about yourself don't you.

Not at all, I just don't believe I have the right to talk for anyone else.

You'd be in jail or dead if that were true.

Why would I? I agree with the vast majority of laws. If I have a problem with the law, it's that it is not properly enforced.

There you go, it's not "your rules", it's society's rules that you agree to put up with.

You are allowed to agree with other people on some things without having to mindlessly submit to everything they believe.

And what's wrong with that? Is everyone else your enemy?

You tell me. You're the non-conformist playing by your own rules.

Speed through the cameras. You won't. Because you're afraid.

No, I just have better things to do with my money that give it to the government.

God i love repeating myself.

Clearly but, as I've already said, it just makes you look more and more stupid, so you should probably stop it.

[Michael L]

By the way, popular music youtuber Andrew Huang wrote a memoir that said youtube was great for learning what goes viral and is popular, so he could better target and market his commercial work, but youtube itself brought in little income in his early days. Of his total income then, commercial commissions were 72%, music sales 16%, Licencing 7%, youtube 4%, merch 1%. Nowadays, more than half his income is courses, software and hardware, with youtube still at 7%, mostly to market himself and build cred.

[mjolnir]

apparently flame wars are born from threads like this.
so... at least we got that question solved.

[vurt]

apparently flame wars are born from threads like this.
so... at least we got that question solved.

that's not a flame war, it's two tired old punks, with nothing left to be angry at, just shouting at clouds, biding time till, well you know...

[donkey tugger]

tenor (1).gif

[jancivil]

so are the people in thread that I have muted fighting now?

I'm envisioning walls of text from one of them...

[donkey tugger]

I'm envisioning walls of text from one of them...

Both....

Recording 2025-03-11 001601.gif

[Shabdahbriah]

so are the people in thread that I have muted fighting now?

I'm envisioning walls of text from one of them...

Indeed. Were it a cafeteria food fight, the spectators could live for a week on what could be caught by all the missed/ignored shots.

[VOODOO U]

The Smiths are a rock band and Pantera are a rock band.

You say dumb things just to drift away from a point that exposes your stupidity. Whatever. Bottom line, saying someone can't write in a particular genre because they like and have a connection to a different genre is dumb especially considering you have a connection to only one genre. You lack any experience connecting to diverse genres.

No, I am speculating.

Exactly. You have no firm evidence and you lack experience.

Exactly.

Yes, exactly. I'm glad you agree that you are dumb.

Saying the same thing twice doesn't make you any less wrong but it definitely makes you look more stupid.

Ok noted. Next time I'll be sure to say it three times instead of two.

If you want to change my mind,

No. Just your music. I want you to do something more along the lines like Taylor Swift.

provide some f**king evidence to back-up your story.

If i could provide evidence then the marketing wouldn't work now would it? So how do I know then? Because i listen, observe and use something called common sense which you lack and thus fall for every shit served on your dish.

Because I can point you to JB's Wikipedia page to back up my version of events.

What's next? Are you going to point me to the bible to back up that Jesus died for my sins?
You're the type that reads Who or People magazine and thinks every damn thing printed in there is truth. "Oooh look guys! Robert Pattison and Kristen Stewart are in love! It's true love!"
Meanwhile the new Twilight film is about to be released. Naaaah, it's not marketing.

Again, f**king prove it.

I can't prove it; I just know. And you don't because you're dumb.

Or even just explain who has benefitted from PewDiePie's on-line popularity to the extent they would have set him up. Ditto for the kid in Melbourne. What you're saying simply makes no sense in those cases.

Oh right, you're BONES. I forgot I have to repeat myself in the hopes that you'll maybe understand anything.
As I explained (you big dummy), showing the public that there is hope in obtaining success in having a YouTube channel draws people in. It's marketing for YouTube. You don't see that happening with Vimeo now do you? Of course not.
YouTube was initially funded, or financially assisted by the band U2. It's what the whole ZooTV tour was for and what the song Zoo Station was all about.
YouTube had the backing to create "stars" as part of a marketing ploy to bring people in.
MC Hammer tried to invest in his own version of YouTube but it never took off and I'm pretty sure there was politics involved.
It's not a big deal. It's just business as usual in the entertainment industry.

I forgot that you're American and everything has to be explained in minute detail for there to be any hope of you understanding any of it. The base is your potential audience,

Your damn right you should be detailed. From the get go you should've said "fan-base" and not just "base". You big dummy.

That's how we've been able to top alternative charts in Europe but can't get more than 20 people to a gig in our home town.

Well then you should've moved to Europe where you could've done bigger gigs and spread the word more. That's how dumb you are.

That's why Joe Dolce topped charts throughout the Civilised World but not in humourless, backwards countries like the USA or Bolivia.

The U.S. does have a sense of humor but being that we're mainly workaholics, we tend to find humor in things that are at the expense of others misfortunes . Like Pee Wee Herman getting caught masturbating at a XXX theatre, that was hilarious. Joe Dolce? Not funny. Novakill performing in front of 20 people? f**king hilarious.

Again, chart-topping songs and my very first single being re-pressed on the other side of the planet, 35 years later. That kind of works against your rather sad attempt at insult, doesn't it?

This is one reason why I hated doing A&R -musicians being so sensitive when they're told their songs aren't strong enough. As if they are entitled to having labels love their stuff no questions asked. Get off the damn high horse already. It's BUSINESS.
I love Mr. Bungle's music and don't really care for Matchbox 20 but I'd rather sign the latter because I know I can SELL THE SONGS and buy me a couple Harleys.

How many song have you had in the charts alongside Taylor Swift?

Zero. And how has that worked out for you? Are there now 21 people showing up at the backyard BBQ show instead of 20?

And how would that go with 8 billion people all doing the same?

We can hunt each other too maybe? Everything tastes like chicken so why not.

Talk about gullible.... Sheesh! I assume you are talking about the San Bushmen?

No I'm talking about the kalahari people. But I get it, it's all rubbish unless bonehead discusses it by his own opinions and observations.

Not at all, I just don't believe I have the right to talk for anyone else.

You mean like how you speak for someone with an innate connection to the Pop aesthetic not being able to write EBM music?

You are allowed to agree with other people on some things without having to mindlessly submit to everything they believe.

Did you get that from a YouTube vid or through Wikipedia?

Clearly but, as I've already said, it just makes you look more and more stupid, so you should probably stop it.

You're dumb. By the way, you're dumb.