Live - Should I..?

[Andywanders]

Been playing with the Live demo for a while now and until recently I had every intention of shelling out the required $499. But then they removed the free sweatshirt offer so now I'm re-considering.

Well, that's not the whole story. I have discovered some other things which bother me slightly about Live.

Firstly, what's with this "Simpler"..? Ableton's website proudly claims ... "Live's built-in Simpler instrument revives the art of sampling." Excuse me, but what a load of bollox that is. Unless I'm missing something, only one sound can be loaded at a time, so no multi-sampling, layers, splits, in fact nothing any half decent sampler can do. The free Paax sampler is better.

Then there's the CPU hit. Wow..! I mean it's way too high. Approximately 35% more than Logic for the same amount of tracks/vst's. It's the same when compared to Tracktion too.

Finally the MIDI side of things is very lame, especially editing, but I notice this is true for a lot of hosts these days. I guess that's inevetible as more and more music software is geared towards VSTi and internal FX. There again, I've yet to find a host that can come close to Logic for communication with external MIDI gear (yes, I still use hardware).

On the plus side though, I do like the Impulse instrument very much. I also like the ability to audition sounds/loops at the song tempo before loading them.

Being able to play around with arrangements is really cool - Logic can be set up to do this with it's "Touch Tracks" feature, but it's not as intuitive - Live really nails this one.

And I LOVE the fact that a song tempo can be easily changed AFTER the audio has been recorded - that's a pain to do in Logic.

Those two points are big plusses for me and could sway my decision to buy it. I'm just not too sure yet.

Maybe I should look at Acid..?

Maybe I should try something else..?

Any recommendations..?

Whatever I do I will probably end up keeping Logic and using rewire, but Live's CPU hit scares me.

I really don't wanna start a host war with this post, or piss anyone off, I'm just not sure about spending the money yet and would like some advice.

[MDMAchine]

Sounds to me like you should stick with logic untill you get a better CPU.

I love live and it has honestly made my music better! Not in how I make it but it gave me this insperation, so to speak. Really reinvented the whole process of producing, which is good! But i am also very lucky to have a computer that can handle Live, as I am aware of its CPU usage. And if I was using any less of a CPU I prolly would be annoyed and dislike it!


Unless you have 533-800Mhz FB, at least 1 gig RDRAM (1.5 SD) and at least 1, 3Ghz chip 2-4 always better!

I would not bother!

To be honest. I dont know abou the sampler as I dont sample, and I like the littel drum machine you mentioned. its not ReDrum, but its in a close second IMO.

But you kind of answerd your own question and since the CPU hit is felt it would only limit you later as you try to add, and god who wants to export loops so they can add the next VST?

I dont...

[zerobae]

Speaking of CPU hit...
I use Acid 5 and got the demo of Live 4 - my impression being that Live is far lighter on the CPU. But I have to add that I never tested Live with say 20 tracks, each with at least one VST attached to, as I often use in Acid.

I definitely will purchase Live some time soon. Although I've used Acid for years now, Live's workflow is even more intuitive to me and was from the first moment or the second.

[MDMAchine]

Speaking of CPU hit...
I use Acid 5 and got the demo of Live 4 - my impression being that Live is far lighter on the CPU. But I have to add that I never tested Live with say 20 tracks, each with at least one VST attached to, as I often use in Acid.

I definitely will purchase Live some time soon. Although I've used Acid for years now, Live's workflow is even more intuitive to me and was from the first moment or the second.

Ohh beleive me when i say this. you pack on some of the more CPU intensive VST's and you'll feel it for sure!

Arturia VST's or anything that uses more than the regular VST, then use a cuple instances (z3ta for exapample) and boom next thing you know your using at least 60% cpu, and by the time it touches 80% its a mess and will halt!

A messy made VST (like the ones I make on synthedit LOL) will also use huge amounts of CPU.

Like i said I have this problem very rarley, but if I was on a less powerfull PC ( not everyone has the benifit of using beefy server cpu's, Even I have to use Live on a fresh boot)

It would be annoying! Although I have faith over time they will optimise it alot more.

I would defintly advise you load it up and test a couple of your VST's before shelling out the cash. And I am all for Live but use that money towards a beefy CPU before you make the jump...

Now only if they made it for linux, i bet you would at least get a 20% edge on cpu consumtion that way?

When will programmers learn... I wish all DAW's had a linux counterpart made by the same team. Like anything else it would run so much better on even a less powerful cpu...

[imekon]

Live seems to handle a 60% load better than FL Studio for example. I've got Acid 4.0 but didn't feel 5.0 was worth the upgrade.

When will programmers learn... I wish all DAW's had a linux counterpart made by the same team. Like anything else it would run so much better on even a less powerful cpu...

I don't believe this to be the case.

Last time I looked at this, basic timing was pretty much the same on Windows as on Linux on the same hardware.

If something is CPU intensive on Windows, it'll be the same on Linux. You're relying on the difference between two optimising compilers at this point.

[spaceman]

Then there's the CPU hit. Wow..! I mean it's way too high. Approximately 35% more than Logic for the same amount of tracks/vst's..

aah.. but that's because Logic sounds 20-40% better than Live

[headquest]

Live 4 in the most disappointing piece of music software that I have even purchased.

I think a lot of this is because of the hype that has surrounded it, which is really disproportionate imho. I expected Live 4 to be so much more than it really is, in part because of Ableton's claim that Live could now be a one-stop sequencing solution, and partly because magazines like FM and CM made it out to be a real DAW buster.

As an audio loop tool, Live is the proverbial dog's chestnuts, but if you want a full-on MIDI/audio sequencer/host, look elsewhere. Live will disappoint you. You are right about the CPU hit in Live 4. It simply seems unable to handle VSTs efficiently.

I did a test in which I loaded the same 5 VSTs in Live 4 and in Tracktion, playing the same SMF. In Live 4 the CPU was 80% compared to 65% in Tracktion running the same instruments/effects configuration, even without using Tracktion's Freeze function (which then further halved the CPU to around 30%, although Ambience was on the master channel and not frozen).

On this forum a couple of others tried the same test - with identical results. On a Mac, the results were also the same.

I started a thread on the Ableton forum seeking acvice and/or feedback. Check out the link:

http://www.ableton.com/index.php?main=forum

My thread is called: VST and CPU performance issues.

A more recent thread is worth reading called: [Poll] Ableton stonewall on CPU issue.

Started by "Macrostructure" the initial post reads: "Ableton continue to ignore all support requests from users in relation to the CPU-hungry problems of Live 4 while hoovering up awards from magazines they fund through advertising. Those guys have changed since the good old days of Live 2/3"

...although as you can imagine it's not the politest thread you will read this year

Btw, you are also quite right about Simpler (although in fairness Logic is the only sequencer I know that that comes with a decent sampler included, although the one in Tracktion is much more useful than the one in Live 4)...

...and you are right about MIDI in Live as well. Stick with Logic for external sync. Live 4 doesn't even seem to have proper GM compatibility so far as I can ascertain.

[sluggo]

Live kicks ass for a lot of reasons. But as a full audio/midi sequencing app it does have it's limitations as mentioned above. I've almost sold Live a few times, but the fact is that it is great for performing, dj mixing, and all sorts of other "live" duties.

If you have Logic, perhaps you would be better off rewiring Acid? I think Acid has better audio than Live. Live has better live capabilities and vsti capabalities imo.

[drez]

To me, Simpler "revives" sampling by making it easy to do instead of complicated. I don't think they meant it would replace gigastudio, they meant that it would make it easy and fun.

During a performance, I can take a clip, drop it into simpler on the waveform display, and now its ready to go. I can copy a clip to a new cell, edit it (like take a synth sound from a sampled loop) and then drop it into simpler and improvise with the original sound.

If you want to cut some of the CPU, shut off some of the things you might not use on that sample like the filters, etc. It helps considerably.

The CPU hit does suck (That's why I use Reason rewired into it so that problem isn't as big a deal to me) so I quickly render my VSTi's to audio clips and then turn off the VSTI's. Works great. Need to edit the MIDI? Turn the VSTi back on, edit, and then resample.

Freeze would be groovey, but this work around is fine for me right now. I work with clips, so I don't have really long phrases.

[Ashra]

let me chime in here for a quick statement:

Live4: great workflow for quick layouts, experiments and demos but no way to go final with the metallic sound of its audio engine (the more tracks you add the worse it becomes...+ summing bus is a nightmare)

This is a topic/beneath the CPU handling thing that people are allergic about over in the Ableton forum, or perhaps; blinded by hype or DJ-esque Zeitgeist; no-one has ears anymore these days...

[MDMAchine]

Live seems to handle a 60% load better than FL Studio for example. I've got Acid 4.0 but didn't feel 5.0 was worth the upgrade.

When will programmers learn... I wish all DAW's had a linux counterpart made by the same team. Like anything else it would run so much better on even a less powerful cpu...

I don't believe this to be the case.

Last time I looked at this, basic timing was pretty much the same on Windows as on Linux on the same hardware.

If something is CPU intensive on Windows, it'll be the same on Linux. You're relying on the difference between two optimising compilers at this point.

Yeah I ment to state the program itself may run the same, but Linux generally has way less overhead compared to windoze....

[Rick1114]

I've been demo'ing live with X-phrase and Z3ta and haven't noticed the CPU hit as much. One patch from either synth can kill my 1.6Mhz lappy with any sequencer, but Live as a CPU hog didn't cross my mind until it was mentioned here. I've got my OS fully tweaked though (and no problems whatsoever, I've boiled it down to a science) so maybe some windows services or start-up programs inadvertantly affect Live's CPU hit - I dunno just a thought. I will say Live will 'break-up' a bit earlier than other hosts but going by feel I'd say 5% or so for me. According to manual rendering is a painless affair, so as long as I can get my VST parts recorded in audio I don't see what the fuss is about - you just have to commit earlier.

For me it may be a DAW killer because setting up remote control with my PCR-50 was as simple as assigning midi learn. Assigning the transport and a few midi clips enables me forego the computer keyboard 99% of the time when recording audio/midi, doing re-takes, adjusting tempo(great!). I don't why no else did this - full transport control via midi learn. When inspiration hits, It's what I always wanted. Of course more buttons would help, that BCR2000 thingy would be heaven for this setup.

Other than that I find the midi records tighter and with the proper feel I'm looking for. That may be my particular DAW or style however. Many other hosts are packed with features in this dept. but still have a 'clunky' note placement when inputting on the fly, quantized or not (this could be something in my particular DAW set-up or style however, but don't think so). Not Live though - my midi parts still have 'breath' on playback, I'm usually happy with the 1st or second take and I don't endlessly fiddle like I did with Cubarse. The edit commands take a 'little' getting used to, but just assigned some mouse buttons to the modifiers - again no more computer keyboard - just the PCR and my mouse 90% of the time.

I will say I'm waiting for T2 before I make a final decision because I already hold the T1 license & I think it has a similar potential to create the particular DAW enviroment I want for myself. They just have to implement a few key features correctly. I'm in no rush, this is just a hobby for me!

[headquest]

let me chime in here for a quick statement:

Live4: great workflow for quick layouts, experiments and demos but no way to go final with the metallic sound of its audio engine (the more tracks you add the worse it becomes...+ summing bus is a nightmare)

This is a topic/beneath the CPU handling thing that people are allergic about over in the Ableton forum, or perhaps; blinded by hype or DJ-esque Zeitgeist; no-one has ears anymore these days...

I'd not really put my thoughts together about the metalic sound, but I know what you mean now you come to mention it...

Live does have a *different* sound which I have not yet decided if I really like or not - but probably not.

Perhaps it's all about the style of music you want to produce... (in my case, mostly ambient, classical and jazz, although being in education I need to do anything mainstream too).

[Andywanders]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

Sounds to me like you should stick with logic untill you get a better CPU.

I have a Pentium IV 2.4Ghz and I have no problems with other hosts. Whatever way you look at it, Live is a CPU hog compared to other hosts.

As an audio loop tool, Live is the proverbial dog's chestnuts, but if you want a full-on MIDI/audio sequencer/host, look elsewhere. Live will disappoint you. You are right about the CPU hit in Live 4. It simply seems unable to handle VSTs efficiently.

Thanks headquest, you're confirming my thoughts. The audio loop part is what really attracts me to Live. The rest really puts me off.

I did a test in which I loaded the same 5 VSTs in Live 4 and in Tracktion, playing the same SMF. In Live 4 the CPU was 80% compared to 65% in Tracktion running the same instruments/effects configuration...

Confirmed. Same thing here.

Started by "Macrostructure" the initial post reads: "Ableton continue to ignore all support requests from users in relation to the CPU-hungry problems of Live 4 while hoovering up awards from magazines they fund through advertising. Those guys have changed since the good old days of Live 2/3" ...

Hmm... That's not very encouraging news.

If you have Logic, perhaps you would be better off rewiring Acid? I think Acid has better audio than Live. Live has better live capabilities and vsti capabalities imo.

That's good advice sluggo. I won't be using Live "live" - when I play gigs I only use hardware. Maybe I should take a look at Acid as a suppliment to Logic.

Live4: great workflow for quick layouts, experiments and demos but no way to go final with the metallic sound of its audio engine (the more tracks you add the worse it becomes...+ summing bus is a nightmare).

Hmm... Now you come to mention it, I have noticed a harder sound to it.

All the replies in this thread have been usefull to me and given me a lot to think about - thanks folks.

Whatever happens, I'll still be a Logic user - I've been using it for too long now (can't teach an old dog...) and have developed a good workflow with it.

However, something like live that can easily change the tempo of a loop would be a very usefull compliment to Logic fo me (sometimes I have to fit audio to video). Logic has a "Time and Pitch Machine" which is okay for small changes, but not so good for larger ones. Also, it's a bit fiddly to set up, and the results can be a bit hit and miss.

As I mentioned before, I won't be using it live but the ability to improvise easily with Live 4 is also a big plus point.

Hmm... Decisions, decisions...

[headquest]

Are you on a Mac? As I understand it Logic is Mac only and Acid is PC only - or am I missing something?

If you're on a PC you might be interested in Adobe Audition, which has Acid style looping (i.e. you can "paint in" loops by dragging them out in the time-line) and do instant time-stretching (using a different tool) by... dragging out the edge of a clipo until it fits the space you want (e.g. against a video thumbnail track, which AA also supports).

Full working 30 day demo here:

http://www.adobe.com/products/audition/main.html