Software vs Hardware

[elxsound]

@IvyBird. There sometimes is a generalization that layering is a modern technique, that it has nothing to do with synthesis or sound design. It’s likely being mentioned here as a production technique, not synthesis, or layering sounds in a single patch.

It’s not new, or modern but no use in arguing that.

Yup, but it shouldn’t even need explaining. Anybody who has made music for any period of time should have realized that from the first mention of the word. Some of these guys are just looking for excuses to argue.

You must have missed the original layering quote I was responding to when I talked about how layers are an important part of sound design and how even a piano is a layered sound

1. Layering is for those that can't program synths properly. No need for it whatsoever - maybe the fact you use presets so much is why your sounds are so thin?

So do you agree with this quote? Don't you think that yes he actually was talking about using it in synthesis as a single patch?

How else should one interpret the idea that layers are for those who can't program Synths properly?

That’s what everyone is trying to tell you. That post is about layering as a production technique, not sound design. That post was a response to someone else saying people would layer the sounds anyways, again used as production trick, not sound design.

If you look up layering on YT you’ll probably come back annoyed at how its talked about, BUT you can see that layering is shown as the magic trick to “sound like a pro” and how its often used in place of sound design and mixing, but also has real use applications (many really) and is not unlike designing a patch made of multiple sounds, but still probably best to understand this context.

[elxsound]

Yup, but it shouldn’t even need explaining. Anybody who has made music for any period of time should have realized that from the first mention of the word. Some of these guys are just looking for excuses to argue.

Hiding under a rock seems to be very easy. I think I could have an interest developing that as a skillset for many reasons at this time.

But, maybe they like to argue.

Eh, this is a crazy world.

Back to reading the camera manual and watching videos when it doesn’t sink in right away.

[IvyBirds]

@IvyBird. There sometimes is a generalization that layering is a modern technique, that it has nothing to do with synthesis or sound design. It’s likely being mentioned here as a production technique, not synthesis, or layering sounds in a single patch.

It’s not new, or modern but no use in arguing that.

Yup, but it shouldn’t even need explaining. Anybody who has made music for any period of time should have realized that from the first mention of the word. Some of these guys are just looking for excuses to argue.

You must have missed the original layering quote I was responding to when I talked about how layers are an important part of sound design and how even a piano is a layered sound

1. Layering is for those that can't program synths properly. No need for it whatsoever - maybe the fact you use presets so much is why your sounds are so thin?

So do you agree with this quote? Don't you think that yes he actually was talking about using it in synthesis as a single patch?

How else should one interpret the idea that layers are for those who can't program Synths properly?

That’s what everyone is trying to tell you. That post is about layering as a production technique, not sound design. That post was a response to someone else saying people would layer the sounds anyways, again used as production trick, not sound design.

If you look up layering on YT you’ll probably come back annoyed at how its talked about, BUT you can see that layering is shown as the magic trick to “sound like a pro” and how its often used in place of sound design and mixing, but also has real use applications (many really) and is not unlike designing a patch made of multiple sounds, but still probably best to understand this context.

And why do you layer sounds as a "production technique"? Isn't that part of sound design? Isn't it to create a new sound that is the sum of two or more parts?

You either have layered sounds, or you have different tracks playing different parts

So if I take a sound from a Jupiter 8 plugin and a Prophet 5 plugin and use the same MIDI stream to play both at the same time did I create a new layered Timbre which by definition was sound design? How is that a "production technique" that's different from any other sound design used in a production? Isn't all sound design a "production technique"? If I take say the Arturia EII V and load a Jupiter 8 sample into slot one and a Prophet 5 sample into slot two and play them both together is that sound design or a production technique? What's the difference? If I used E-Ii V to load one sample and Tal Sampler to load the other and played both with the same MIDI stream is that a layered patch? Or is that just a production technique when the end result will sound pretty much exactly the same?

If I take Voltage Modular, or Patchworks and load them up on a single instrument track and inside of that host two or more different instrument plugins say a DX7 Emulation and an Analog Polysynth Emulation (which I do often) that feed into the same reverb, and that are played using the same MIDI stream have a done sound design or is that just a production technique? Most people would call that Sound Design

If I did the same thing only using two instrument tracks in DAW that feed the same bus and have the same reverb plugin is that just a production technique or am I designing a timbre or sound by combining two parts?

You are trying to make a distinction without a difference and it's rather silly

But maybe I am wrong, if so explain the difference between a production technique and sound design when your end goal is to play the same notes using the same MIDI data

It's exactly the same

[elxsound]

Yes I would say it is the same but because it’s completed at a different stage of music production some others wouldn’t agree and well everyone is correct.

On one side you create a sound that will be a single instrument to be played.

The other side, is solving a problem to an already recorded piece.

[IvyBirds]

Yes I would say it is the same but because it’s completed at a different stage of music production some others wouldn’t agree and well everyone is correct.

On one side you create a sound that will be a single instrument to be played.

The other side, is solving a problem to an already recorded piece.

But you are now directly contradicting yourself when you said this

That’s what everyone is trying to tell you. That post is about layering as a production technique, not sound design.

You said this was about layering as a production technique

Layering is for those that can't program synths properly. No need for it whatsoever - maybe the fact you use presets so much is why your sounds are so thin?

It's not and never was, it was in response to this

When you have 40k+ presets in Nexus, Ominsphere, Arturia V collection, will you really sit down and start designing a preset from scratch for hours? Is it not easier to find a preset you like designed by a professional, tweak it or layer it with another sound if you have to?

You will notice the context here is explicitly sound design, not some other stage in the production process, why else is he talking about designing a preset from scratch? Is that something you do in Mixdown? Or tweaking a preset? Is that something you do during Mixdown?

At what production stage exactly are you designing a preset from scratch? At what production stage are you tweaking an existing factory preset if not for sound design

I appreciate your lecture when you said to me

That’s what everyone is trying to tell you. That post is about layering as a production technique, not sound design. That post was a response to someone else saying people would layer the sounds anyways, again used as production trick, not sound design.

If you look up layering on YT you’ll probably come back annoyed at how its talked about,

That post was never about anything other than sound design, despite your lecture and need to argue that it was

But please show me what videos I am supposed to be looking for on YouTube that I will get annoyed about

[Uncle E]

[elxsound]

I don’t know either.

I’m gonna make a layered cake. Might make a lasagna tomorrow for the layering fun.

Maybe peel an onion or just watch the first Shrek movie.

If I had hair, I’d get it cut in layers.

These forums are full of layers of understanding

[IvyBirds]

[vurt]

im not so much annoyed, as feel a little sick, with that one...

[BONES]

Blah!, blah, blah, I have nothing to contribute to the actual thread, I just want everyone to see how clever I think I am.

Yes, I was stupid to engage with you at all. You rarely have anything of value to contribute to anything here. You can't even recognise a throw-away line when you see one, you just like to come in and nit-pick when you think you have an opportunity to make yourself look clever. It's very "uni student" behaviour but you've been doing it for 20+ years, so you don't really have any excuse. Don't you think it's time you grew up? (Rhetorical question, I won't be reading your response, just I didn't read what you wrote here.)

[BONES]

What I said is that a piano is a layered sound.

You could say the same about any two osc synth but that is clearly not what anyone means when they talk about layering, is it? kritkon's interpretation is completely valid if your only criterion for the piano sound to be layered is that multiple strings are vibrating at the same time. If you play a chord on a piano, it won't sound the same as recording each note individually and layering them in your DAW, will it? To me, that's the difference - the interaction of the individual parts. If that's present, then I don't think it's really layered. If it's not present, then it definitely is layered.

When you press a key the hammer hits a key, that makes a distinct sound that is percussive in nature. You can hear this in isolation if you lift the lid and place your hand on the strings to prevent them from vibrating. That percussive sound only lasts a brief period of time as that sound fades away you will hear the sound of the strings vibrating through the bridges which in turn causes the soundboard and cabinet to vibrate. So you have a layered sound.

No, you don't, it's just a number of different elements contributing to a single timbre. It's no different to an oscillator passing through a filter that is being modulated by an envelope or a synth being processed through a reverb or delay. Technically, those effects are taking a raw sound and layering it with delayed and/or filtered versions of it but we don't call that layering, do we?

If you are going to use a synthesizer to make a similar sound you would use a layered approach where one layer uses Synthesis techniques to emulate the percussive sound of the hammers hitting the strings, really authentic Synthesis tools would also include synthesizing the mechanical sounds of the hammer mechanism.

What you're talking about is one sound followed by a different sound, which isn't layering by any definition. It might require a complex set-up but it can be done well enough with a single osc (maybe using something like DWGS) and perhaps ProSoloist style resonators or a reverb/delay.

That would be two layers

Again, not necessarily, it might be two processes but it wouldn't necessarily need to be layered because the sounds come one after the other.

There sometimes is a generalization that layering is a modern technique

Clearly that's not true, otherwise we'd be questioning why an orchestra needs more than one violin. I'd liken a piano with three strings per note to a three osc synth - it's not really what we'd consider layering, although something like Union is definitely nothing more than three single-osc synths layered/mixed together.

[IvyBirds]

What I said is that a piano is a layered sound.

You could say the same about any two osc synth but that is clearly not what anyone means when they talk about layering, is it? kritkon's interpretation is completely valid if your only criterion for the piano sound to be layered is that multiple strings are vibrating at the same time.

Awesome but if all you have is the stings vibrating it won't sound like a piano will it? For it to sound like a piano you need to percussive sound of the hammers. That is the sound that makes it recognized to most humans as a piano. That's the sound you get when you press a key

If you take a piano sample and slice off the attack where the hammers are percussively hitting the strings and just have the sound of the stings and loop that at a zero crossing without clicks it will not be recognized at a piano sound to most people it will sound like a pad

Likewise if you just use the sound of the hammers hitting the sting you could sequence it like a drum sample and use it as a percussion instrument

For it to sound like a piano and be recognized as a piano you need the layer of the percussive hammer hits and the sound of the strings

It's like saying living the dream and pooping in a bucket on your boat like you have to do is the same as having actual indoor plumbing under a roof

[BazJacuzzi]

Great thread. 10/10 would read again.

[whyterabbyt]

You rarely have anything of value to contribute to anything here. You can't even recognise a throw-away line when you see one, you just like to come in and nit-pick when you think you have an opportunity to make yourself look clever. It's very "uni student" behaviour but you've been doing it for 20+ years, so you don't really have any excuse. Don't you think it's time you grew up? (Rhetorical question, I won't be reading your response, just I didn't read what you wrote here.)

psychological projection at its finest. go on, toddle off now, noone's impressed by your infantile temper tantrums.

[El°HYM]

Gentlemen please...