Software vs Hardware

[IvyBirds]

Again you layer a DX7 for the attack portion of a timbre with a Juno for the rest

Or you find a different instrument that can do what you need without having to be propped up by something else. Alternatively, you keep working on your DX-7 patch (which often feels like alchemy, I know) or your Juno patch until one of them works on it's own.

Awesome tell you what show me a synth that can give me a synthesized FM attack and an analog sounding decay, sustain, and release. I could use HALion7 and use it's FM-X engine for part of jtb

Could I make a similar sound using just FM? Sure I need 12 operators however as I would need 6 for the attack and another 6 for the decay, sustain, and release, even then however I can't get the decay, sustain, and release to sound like I want

FM programming is not alchemy for me, it's a skill, one I have been exploring for 35+ years, I own every FM Synth plugin capable of complex tones and timbres, OPS7, FM8, DX7-V, HALion7, F'em, Synclavier V and many more,.none can do what I want unless it has multi-timbrality and FM and an Analog synth engine

Dr Manny Fernandez who developed FM timbres for various Yamaha Synth and still does for Montage and probably knows it better than just about anyone else was tasked by Yamaha to make sounds using FM to rival the D50 in the late 1980s used a TX816 and layered 8 different DX7 engines to pull it off

Of course even with 12 operators in a single synth you would be using multiple stacks which means you are layering

The Juno is not capable of doing the attack I want, but it does the exact decay, sustain, and release that I want, it's chorus also has the effect I want to apply to those parts but not on the attack. Again I know the Juno EXTREMELY well it does part of what I want perfectly but fails miserably on the other parts

So shall I simply make a layered patch? Or spend time in frustration and settle for something I don't want? Or do what you do and limit my creativity and vision surfing presets and not get what I want and invision?

And before you mock me for using the tools that give me the sounds that I want as a creative person, commit to using the Korg Triton and only the Korg Triton for the rest of your life on every record you do. You have said in the past you don't like it, but keep on working on it until you make it work, but that will give you thousands of presets so use that and nothing else forever

[damoog]

Love software and love hardware synths …both can coexist,

Personally Software has a slight upper hand for me as I can demo the product before buying but sourcing hardware is a PITA (not many stores etc)

In hardware case I love the hands on approach and important to have the tools you truly need before you spend thousands on stuff you might not realistically need.

Avoiding YouTube / GAS is a struggle

[zerocrossing]

Love software and love hardware synths …both can coexist,

Personally Software has a slight upper hand for me as I can demo the product before buying but sourcing hardware is a PITA (not many stores etc)

In hardware case I love the hands on approach and important to have the tools you truly need before you spend thousands on stuff you might not realistically need.

Avoiding YouTube / GAS is a struggle

I'm surprised these threads still persist. I guess we all just like debating, even when there's no real argument. Both hardware and software have strengths and weaknesses. It's not like 2000, when there wasn't much in the way of affordable hardware. Just buy what you like using and get on with it.

[kritikon]

No, you can't just use whichever you prefer. You have to admit that you're wrong to not use the ones the music technology nazis insist are the only ones you can properly use. A bit of self-flagellation and mea culpa, and THEN you can use whichever you prefer. You have to be and feel guilty for using any hw synth before you can actually use it. You have to acknowledge there's no viable reason for you to use it before you use it. Even a few counseling sessions would go a long way to mitigate any decision you might make to use anything hw. And while you're at it, you filthy hw users are probably the ones burning the planet and causing every malaise known to man. Probably should offer an apology up to the world before your dirty fingers hit a key. Must be a bit of a sociopath to want a hw synth tbh. It amazes me that I can bring myself to even go outdoors considering how awful I am to have...several ( ) hw synths that I obvs shouldn't be allowed to have.

[BONES]

Awesome tell you what show me a synth that can give me a synthesized FM attack and an analog sounding decay, sustain, and release.

I don't even know what that means. i.e. How does an "analogue-sounding decay" differ from any other kind of decay? No matter how you do it, it will always depend on which waveforms you use and how you modulate things. In something like FM8, for example, you'd use one operator to get your "FM attack" and another operator to control your decay. Or you could use something like Flow Motion, which has an FM engine as well as a multi-mode filter so, again, you'd do your attack within the FM engine and the filter could take care of the decay. Job done.

Could I make a similar sound using just FM? Sure I need 12 operators however as I would need 6 for the attack and another 6 for the decay, sustain, and release, even then however I can't get the decay, sustain, and release to sound like I want

Rather than using 6 operators for each part of the timbre, try using feedback instead to amplify the effect. Overall, though, it sounds to me like you don't really know what you want to do. You're making arbitrary rules. It's a stupid way to think about the process. It makes no sense to think "FM this" and "analogue that", you should just be thinking "I need a timbre to play this part". That way you don't limit yourself, which opens up the possibility for some serendipitous creativity. When you lock your options in with rigid thinking, that never happens.

none can do what I want unless it has multi-timbrality and FM and an Analog synth engine

So use those plugins, it's not rocket science.

Dr Manny Fernandez who developed FM timbres for various Yamaha Synth and still does for Montage and probably knows it better than just about anyone else was tasked by Yamaha to make sounds using FM to rival the D50 in the late 1980s used a TX816 and layered 8 different DX7 engines to pull it off

Thankful for 40 years of synth development, eh?

it's chorus also has the effect I want to apply to those parts but not on the attack.

See, you're throwing up barriers to creativity. It's madness! Nothing has to be this, or has to be that, it just has to work within the context of the project you're making it for.

Again I know the Juno EXTREMELY well

I think anyone who has used one for more than 5 minutes can say the same. It's about as basic as it gets.

And before you mock me for using the tools that give me the sounds that I want as a creative person, commit to using the Korg Triton and only the Korg Triton for the rest of your life on every record you do.

Sorry, pal, I'm not that stupid, nor do I have anything to prove to anyone. I've got songs to write, albums to get out, live shows to rehearse, I'll leave that kind of lunacy to people with nothing going on in their lives.

[IvyBirds]

I don't even know what that means. i.e. How does an "analogue-sounding decay" differ from any other kind of decay? No matter how you do it, it will always depend on which waveforms you use and how you modulate things. In something like FM8, for example, you'd use one operator to get your "FM attack" and another operator to control your decay. Or you could use something like Flow Motion, which has an FM engine as well as a multi-mode filter so, again, you'd do your attack within the FM engine and the filter could take care of the decay. Job done.

I know exactly what I want and I need 6 operators, in this example I am using a classic FM EP styled patch that uses algo 5 which is three stacks of two which in reality is already a layered patch with three complete FM Synths If I was making a patch like "Full Tines" from DX7II one of those stacks would have a much longer sustain and release envelope, in my example we need to modify that stack to get out of the way and quickly fade out

As that fades out a Juno would be ramping up and cross fading into the patch. The Juno is perfect for this as it has a single DCO and envelope per voice that then gets thickened by the chorus. When you put these two patches together you get a cool sounding electric piano patch that you can't make any other way. That's called sound design or synth programming not mixing as no mixer is really being used just envelopes

[
See, you're throwing up barriers to creativity. It's madness! Nothing has to be this, or has to be that, it just has to work within the context of the project you're making it for.

Nope I am eliminating barriers to creativity and accomplishing exactly what I set out to do

[IvyBirds]

[
Sorry, pal, I'm not that stupid, nor do I have anything to prove to anyone. I've got songs to write, albums to get out, live shows to rehearse, I'll leave that kind of lunacy to people with nothing going on in their lives.

Why not? See,you're throwing up barriers to creativity. It's madness! Nothing has to be this, or has to be that, it just has to work within the context of the project you're making it for.

And if you believed your BS that would mean that the Triton would be fine as certainly one of those thousands of patches would work in the context of the project you are working on

But you refuse to do so why? And if you can select the Synths that sound the way you want them to why is so upsetting for you when others do so? Taking that a step further when they are more creative and better programmers than you are why is it so upsetting for you when others use multiple synths in the same patch to get the exact sound they are looking for

[BONES]

And if you believed your BS that would mean that the Triton would be fine as certainly one of those thousands of patches would work in the context of the project you are working on

Which is exactly how I worked for more than a decade, with 90% of the sounds coming from an M1, then an O1R/W and, lastly, from a Trinity. Of course, even before that I was using the four-part multi-timbrality of the CZ-101 to do all of my backing synth parts. Later I replaced it with an ESQ-M which, again, did all of my backing synths. But that was 25+ years ago, times have changed and I have moved on with them. I have absolutely no desire to revisit the past. In fact, it is just about the saddest thing I can think of.

[whassup]

25 years ago it was: It doesn't sound like a Virus.
Today...

[IvyBirds]

And if you believed your BS that would mean that the Triton would be fine as certainly one of those thousands of patches would work in the context of the project you are working on

Which is exactly how I worked for more than a decade, with 90% of the sounds coming from an M1, then an O1R/W and, lastly, from a Trinity. Of course, even before that I was using the four-part multi-timbrality of the CZ-101 to do all of my backing synth parts. Later I replaced it with an ESQ-M which, again, did all of my backing synths. But that was 25+ years ago, times have changed and I have moved on with them. I have absolutely no desire to revisit the past. In fact, it is just about the saddest thing I can think of.

Why did you move on? Again follow your own argument. It's doesn't have to be this or that right? It just has to fit into the context of the project you are working on

Your words and your workflow don't align, if it did you would have no issues with just using the Triton plugin exclusively and nothing else

From my perspective people are free to use whatever tools they want to achieve the results they want

You claim that is incorrect and they shouldn't, while your actual real world use of these tools is 180 degrees different than your words

[BONES]

Why did you move on? Again follow your own argument. It's doesn't have to be this or that right? It just has to fit into the context of the project you are working on

I'm sorry but there is zero logic in what you're suggesting. Just because I could do something isn't any reason to actually do it. Only a compete diot would think it was. For a start, something like a Triton is a nightmare to work with, why would anyone want to subject themselves to that?

Then there is the fact that just because we've used a particular sound for a particular part in a particular song at a particular point in time doesn't mean that at a different point in time another sound might not be more appropriate (or just plain better). I'll give you a great example - last night I saw Soft Cell on their first ever Australian tour. They played all the songs from their first album (Non Stop Erotic Cabaret) in album order, followed by a couple of old singles, then some songs off more recent albums. All the songs I had come to hear sounded exactly like the original album versions, shitty drum machine sounds and krappy synths included. Then they played some new songs with up to date instruments and sounds and, even though I'd never heard any of those songs before, I enjoyed the new songs way more than the old, familiar stuff that I'd paid $100 to see and hear. Times change, expectations change and Soft Cell's old stuff sounded like shit last night, compared to their newer stuff. Of course, the morons who'd only turned up to hear Tainted Love couldn't have cared less (and got it twice) but that's hardly the point. As John Watts (Fischer-Z) said of his live performances, his only obligation is to be good. Last night Soft Cell failed to deliver on that obligation, instead deciding that sounding like they did 45 years ago was good enough. It was disappointing.

From my perspective people are free to use whatever tools they want to achieve the results they want

And we're all free to judge them on those decisions. Of course, it's easy to make a judgement when you can hear the results of those decisions but when anyone ventures an opinion to allow anyone to judge the merits of those decisions, it's reasonable to conclude those people are clueless idiots, don't you think?

[jethrobull]

[SoftSynthLover99]

Grammy nominated AND producer of the year nominee. Guess we can add her to the list of producers/musicians who are still doing it wrong?
Who needs instruments, effects pedals, drum machines etc when we have computers right?! RIGHT?!

[zerocrossing]

Grammy nominated AND producer of the year nominee. Guess we can add her to the list of producers/musicians who are still doing it wrong?
Who needs instruments, effects pedals, drum machines etc when we have computers right?! RIGHT?!

As soon as she says the Juno 106 is capable of so many different sounds, she reveals that she has no idea what she’s talking about. The “Prophet 10 is like a Prophet 5 with some extra stuff” really nails the point down. I couldn’t spend 10 minutes alone with her.

[Shabdahbriah]

Grammy nominated AND producer of the year nominee. Guess we can add her to the list of producers/musicians who are still doing it wrong?
Who needs instruments, effects pedals, drum machines etc when we have computers right?! RIGHT?!

As soon as she says the Juno 106 is capable of so many different sounds, she reveals that she has no idea what she’s talking about. The “Prophet 10 is like a Prophet 5 with some extra stuff” really nails the point down. I couldn’t spend 10 minutes alone with her.

I bailed @2:58, after she said "like" 25 (that's t.w.e.n.t.y-f.i.v.e) times in under three minutes!