Software vs Hardware

[Funky40]

I've taken out both software based rigs (using Forte, Cantabile, or Ableton Live)... and hardware based rigs.
There are advantages/disadvantages to both.

I'm trialing Gig Performer... and like a lot of things about it.

Take GigPerfomer !

it´s imo miles ahead of any other host.
everybody who switched over is ...after some time.....just full of praise.

i abandoned HW quasi completly now. I use GP.
If i still deal with HW, i WANT to send it thru GP. anything. ...based on some reasons


but my usecases are very special. Nothing band context. Nothing vs. playing a set repertoire. No gigging at all ( while i was on stage in a previous live. just not as a keyboarder)


GP opens up doors in diections,...especially vs. creative usages,...you´d never think of, until you´re doing it.

Tech has advanced alots the last 3 years.
GP and it´s advancement IS part of that !


but: usages, needs, and tastes differ

[dellboy]

Recently watched the Dennis Atlas video... thinking about using Gig Perfomer for live.
We've got about 60 shows booked for 2025.

I've taken out both software based rigs (using Forte, Cantabile, or Ableton Live)... and hardware based rigs.
There are advantages/disadvantages to both.
I've never had performance or stability issues with my software based rigs.

My career has been building custom PC DAWs professionally the past 30+ years.
My computer performance expectations go far beyond any laptop... so that means a mini-ITX build.
If I'm taking out a software based rig, I'm not going to deal with latency that's higher than my hardware keyboards.

When I started playing with this band (about 6 years ago), I was fronting the band 100% of the songs.
We needed to cover some keyboard sounds... but I didn't want to be tethered to a keyboard.
At first, I was triggering notes/phrases (samples) with small Keith McMillen MIDI controllers (using my hands or feet).
I was using a software rig with Ableton Live... and that worked just fine.
A couple years later, the band wanted to expand into songs that required more playing vs triggering (Journey, Night Ranger, Kansas, Styx, Foreigner, etc). I had to become more of a traditional keyboard player... and that meant being tethered to a keyboard. The bass player and I were now splitting fronting the band.

In this more traditional keyboard playing role, I started bringing out my Montage 7.
Cartage wasn't too bad... and it was quick/easy to setup.
Montage 7 served me well for a couple years... but I started to get a bit unsatisfied with its Pianos, Organs, and more analog type synth sounds.
We (ironically) went to see Toto here in Columbus... and both keyboard players at that time were using Nord rigs.
A Nord Stage 88 on the bottom... and either a Nord Stage Compact or Wave2 for top-tier.
Both players sounded fantastic.

Most of my keyboard playing years, I've owned hardware "workstation" keyboards (due to their versatility).
I had always completely ignored Nord keyboards... as I never ever thought I'd like a "Stage Piano".
So many touring players were (are) using Nords, I knew there had to be something to it.
The local GC had a Stage 3 (prior to Stage 4 being released)... so I went there and got it.
Much to my surprize, I was able to program our entire four hour show in two days (including custom samples).
Programming the Stage 3 was actually... fun (not pure drudgery).
The Pianos, E Pianos, Organs, and analog synth type sounds were ALL a significant improvement over my Montage 7.
I was hooked... but also a little put-off by some odd quirks/limitations (vs a workstation type keyboard).

Nord instruments are distilled to what's absolutely necessary (vs what you might prefer).
-Split-Points are preset locations (not user definable). Yes, that's still a head-scratcher.
-For user-samples, there's no velocity-switching for samples. You've got a single velocity.
-Pitchbend up/down ranges are presets (not user-defined).
Though I was loving using the Stage 3, I was struggling with these hard-imposed limitations.
Several NYE gigs ago, I had to cover the violin part for Friend In Low Places.
I was thinking the Nord would sound terrible for this (vs the Montage 7).
To my amazement, the single velocity solo violin on the Stage 3 blew away the solo violin sound in the Montage 7.
At that point, I stopped worrying about the Nord's limitations... and started to 100% dive-in.

About 6 months after I started using the Stage 3, Nord announced the Stage 4.
Based on my extremely positive experience with the Stage 3, I immediately pre-ordered the Stage 4.
Stage 4 didn't come with the same library as the Stage 3.
What I thought would be a super easy transition... ended up being a couple months.
Sampled my Stage 3... and used Sample Robot to create other much needed samples (Strings, Brass, Choirs, etc).
While the Stage 4 is a great instrument, the included sample library isn't as wide/diverse as something like Montage/M.
The beauty of it is that you make it your instrument... with the exact sounds you want/need.
The downside... you have to do the dirty work to get it done.
The Nord Sample Editor and Sample Robot made this process relatively painless (tolerable).

At this point, I have my Nord Stage 4 sounding (to my ears) exceptionally good.
Playing tunes like Carry On Wayward Son (split second to change sounds), I decided to add a second tier keyboard.
Struggled for months trying to decide what to use... thinking I wanted something different (from the Stage 4).
After grabbing Montage M8x, Montage 7, Fantom 7, and Nautilus... I realized I didn't need something different.
I needed something practical.
Added the Stage 4 Compact (it is super compact and light-weight)... and delivers more of what was already working well.

For what it is, my current two-tier Nord keyboard rig is relatively light/compact.
Out of all the keyboards I've owned (even with the quirks/limitations), the Stage 4 is hands down my favorite.
My long-winded point; the bar for my live rig is pretty high.
If I go the software route (again), that new rig will have to eclipse my current setup.

I've got an extensive collection of virtual-instruments.
I'm trialing Gig Performer... and like a lot of things about it.
One obvious thing, programming/tweaking virtual-instruments is a PITA vs doing the same with the Nords (which have a very immediate knob/button/slider per function UI). Even using MIDI control surfaces... it's still nowhere near as immediate.
Advanced sample libraries is where the software rig has a massive advantage.
Comparing analog type synth virtual-instruments, I almost always prefer the Nord's VA synth engine.
Getting virtual-instruments into Gig Performer... with widgets that would facilitate more immediate tweaking... is going to take substantial time/effort.
For myself, what I don't want is to create a lot of additional work... for what ends up being a lateral move.

That was an interesting read. Thanks

[Jim Roseberry]

I'm going to build a new Core Ultra 9 285k based mini-ITX machine.
I'll pair that with a 21" touch-screen monitor and a Quantum 2626 (connected via Thunderbolt).
That will allow me to experiment with Gig Performer... in a more "gig ready" type scenario.
Hope to get it where it's more immediate like hardware.

[Funky40]

I'm going to build a new Core Ultra 9 285k based mini-ITX machine.

i suspect you do know the numbers.
I´m a mac-only user, so just out of curiosity:
Do you have in the win-world consumer grade CPUs which deliver more singlecore speed than a M4mac ? If so, how much more ?

Edit: ok, found some. There was a post from february
viewtopic.php?p=9039987#p9039987

i see different opinions.

GP runs single core only.
and i do run my M4mac with some patches allready into its knees (on one core)


I use a Quantum 2626 too. low latency and affordable.

[Jim Roseberry]

I'm going to build a new Core Ultra 9 285k based mini-ITX machine.

i suspect you do know the numbers.
I´m a mac-only user, so just out of curiosity:
Do you have in the win-world consumer grade CPUs which deliver more singlecore speed than a M4mac ? If so, how much more ?

i see different opinions.

GP runs single core only.
and i do run my M4mac with some patches allready into its knees (on one core)


I use a Quantum 2626 too. low latency and affordable.

Are you sure about GP only using a single core?
If so, that's an absolute show stopper for me. Wow!

Both the 9950x and Core Ultra 9 285k best the M4 Max (significantly) in Cinebench 2024 multi-core:
9950 scores ~2340
CU9285k scores ~2416
M4M scores ~1756

Might have to revisit Ableton Live.
It was pretty good for this purpose.


Edit: Looks like you're correct. Single Core for GP.
That is a huge let-down.

[Funky40]

Are you sure about GP only using a single core?
If so, that's an absolute show stopper for me. Wow!

Yes.

GP runs on itself on one core only.
But: it does not hinder plugins to run on their own multicore.


yeah, they don´t tell you that too loud.
They "unloaded" (quasi removed) more than one thread from me, begging for multicore support.

you can send data, audio and midi from one GP instance to another.
they´ve added a special "plugin" for that purpose. and there are also external solutions.
BlueCat connect for example.
But that´s NOT the same

GP can be loaded many times in parallel.
I have scripts installed for a direct access from my macs toolbar.
I effecitvly use one GP instance as my final mixing solution for *everything* audio on my mac.
But distributing "projects" itself to several GP instances is not working out for me.
The hassle is too big, my work to wide spread to different projects/patch files, that i could make this run as a normal get go.

I made the proposal to them to look at the nord modular 1 (NM1), and how it has a bus-system going. That would be a feasable solution for such a open, modular system, to run audio in a controlled fashion from one core to another.
This might come one day.
.....so far it did not.



Thanks for the info, i just edited my above post: found the Dawbench thread with some DAwbench infos with some M3/M4 infos. Yeah, M4 not best....

[Funky40]

ahh, vs latencys for live play:
Maybe check out Reaper then ?
with my tests, reaper looked very good as well.
Ableton live does not with the sort of patches i´m doing.

[IvyBirds]

I'm going to build a new Core Ultra 9 285k based mini-ITX machine.

i suspect you do know the numbers.
I´m a mac-only user, so just out of curiosity:
Do you have in the win-world consumer grade CPUs which deliver more singlecore speed than a M4mac ? If so, how much more ?

i see different opinions.

GP runs single core only.
and i do run my M4mac with some patches allready into its knees (on one core)


I use a Quantum 2626 too. low latency and affordable.

Are you sure about GP only using a single core?
If so, that's an absolute show stopper for me. Wow!

Both the 9950x and Core Ultra 9 285k best the M4 Max (significantly) in Cinebench 2024 multi-core:
9950 scores ~2340
CU9285k scores ~2416
M4M scores ~1756

Might have to revisit Ableton Live.
It was pretty good for this purpose.


Edit: Looks like you're correct. Single Core for GP.
That is a huge let-down.

I run GP alongside of Audiogridder. It's transparent in real world use. With Audiogridder you can either run it on your main PC or secondary PCs. Essentially you host Audiogridder like it's an instrument that's your "client" and run it again as a "server" the server hosts your virtual instrument and gets its own dedicated core. So you end up with say DIVA on its own core, Zebra on another, Falcon on another etc

That DESTROYS any other options on Mac or PC for power

If you run out of cores you can add another PC or two or three and do the same. Audiogridder sends MIDI and audio from one PC to another. With quality networking cables, and quality routers and network cards the secondary PCs have imperceptible latency as well of less than a MS. It's also possible to send the GUI from one plugin across the network to another in Audiogridder that will introduce an additional few MS in latency which is not relevant in a live setting as you just need Audio and MIDI. Think of how fast DANTE or Madi handles hundreds of channels of digital audio over Cat5e or better

As far as controllers Gig Performer is dead simple. Once you get the hand of it it's Drag and Drop and you can align any controls together like a word processor

If you set up your "rack spaces" which is what Gig Performer calls them to mimic what physicals controls you have available it's dead simple and you can tear through it. Everything can be labeled as well right in screen

If you end up renting, or borrowing, ot switching out a controller on the road, it' also dead simple to make adjustments for your initial setup

You also get global rack spaces to program for your entire show, and individual rack spaces for each song, and then going deeper you can get variety of them that can change during each song

For example if you set filter cutoff for one knob for "DIVA" in your first song, that knob will transform instantly to control cutoff for "The Legend HZ" on the second or maybe you want that knob to control one thing during the verses and another during the synth solo part, that's were the variations come into play

Once you wrap your head around it you will never look back

[Funky40]

With Audiogridder you

in my case, any such solution is NOT working out for me.
Even if doing everything within one PC/Mac.
Such things are totally use-case dependend, though.

i NEED to have my whole thing saved within one file !
one attempt to save, one attempt to load a project.

[IvyBirds]

With Audiogridder you

in my case, any such solution is NOT working out for me.
Even if doing everything within one PC/Mac.
Such things are totally use-case dependend, though.

i NEED to have my whole thing saved within one file !
one attempt to save, one attempt to load a project.

But that is exactly what happens

You run Gig Performer. You host Audiogridder as an instrument and send MIDI and/or audio to it (it can host effects also) and route it's audio and/or MIDI out of it

Then you load say DIVA into it with a preset called "Awesome_Lead" that you made

Then you save everything

When you load up Gig Performer again you load that Gig Performer preset and boom DIVA launches inside of an instance of Audiogridder with the preset "Awesome_Lead" loaded and ready to go. No fuss no muss

It will also load all your controller mappings and any routing for your audio, like maybe you want to then send DIVA into a channel strip, or reverb, or tape sim, or whatever

I very much prefer this approach as it puts me 100% in control of how cores get allocated on my system during my show, I am not beholden to a DAW, VST Host, a plugin, or my OS doing it for me

The last thing I would want is for something besides me deciding that Serum and Diva should be on the same core

[BONES]

I don't understand why you are all so fixated on CPU power. I've been getting up on stage with a PC since about 2002, when they were still single core jobbies, clocked in MHz, and it had to provide every sound we used, apart from my vocals. If you are just using something like GP to play keyboards in a band, surely any old consumer grade laptop will work more than well enough, won't it? If all you're after is hardware-like latency, then we're talking about 10ms or thereabouts, which is a doddle with even a cheap audio interface. e.g. My sub-$100 Zoom U24 runs at about 5ms, which gives me round-trip latency of 11.8ms, which is well within the ballpark.

... the band wanted to expand into songs that required more playing vs triggering (Journey, Night Ranger, Kansas, Styx, Foreigner, etc). I had to become more of a traditional keyboard player... and that meant being tethered to a keyboard.

You never thought to go down the Keytar route? I used one when I was performing solo, for about 12 years. I had a long MIDI cable and a headset mic so I could roam about the stage and jump off the stage into the audience if I felt like it. I decided to rule a line under it when we started doing NOVAkILL in 1997 but it served me very well as a solo artist.

[Funky40]

But that is exactly what happens

Ok !
i was not aware that this works like this.
I never installed audiogridder and had a wrong idea of it then.
Need to check !

Thanks for the explanation @Ivy

I don't understand why you are all so fixated on CPU power. I've been getting up on stage with a PC .....

usecases differ !

as has been pointed out, the host i mainly work with runs on one single core only. Even if i´d use audiogridder that would work out just for some few things.

So 5 months after ugrading from a M2mac to a M4 mac, with a ~40% singlecore power increase, do i run my M4 allready into its knees on one core !
*I* do eat one core for one single instrument patch.


i run FFT based FX with latencys of 80ms and more. Up to 200ms in fact.
That´s for realtime play purposes. Not exactly ideal
BUT: if i take bluecat patchwork as a plugin, and would host sayed FFT based FX inside patchwork, can i oversample there these otherwise not oversampling ready FXes, AND bring latency down.
BUT: it increases the CPU load *significaly*
For that type of -creative- work can´t you have enough CPU power.


IF GP had a slotsystem to allow multicore usages within itself, would i be fine with a M2mini-pro.
I´d not need more CPU power.
And with my new M4-mac would i be fine for the rest of my live anyway.

Myself, not switching over from GP to something else ! It´s key for me.

i can "there" outperform HW-based setups. In several ways.
HW is "for me" even nolonger anything a competition vs. a ITB based setup.
it´s -to me- so outdated as could be.

talking keyboard playing, and especially: keyboard + FX

[Ah_Dziz]

Networked hosts (I use VEP for studio work) load as plugins but run on their own processes. I use mine to constantly have my scoring template up and ready, but it would be amazing for live work as well.

I do some live stuff here and there, and it's a mix between Laptop and some hardware. I bought a maschine plus, but it's more crash prone in standalone mode than when running the software on the laptop. This also adds access to all my other plugins. I generally use bitwig with an instance of machine loaded as a plugin and then use my nord g2 as the centerpiece. For working as a keyboardist in a band I'd probably go with a laptop and a relatively simple controller keyboard and then a knob and button box to control patch selection and part changes. I'd probably run kontakt, a few zebra 2 instances and one of each of the martinec organs/ pianos.

[Jim Roseberry]

ahh, vs latencys for live play:
Maybe check out Reaper then ?
with my tests, reaper looked very good as well.
Ableton live does not with the sort of patches i´m doing.

I know Ableton Live has a little additional latency... and it's not the most CPU efficient.
I don't remember having any performance issues using it before... but at that point I was mostly triggering samples (vs more traditional keyboard playing).

[Jim Roseberry]

I run GP alongside of Audiogridder. It's transparent in real world use. With Audiogridder you can either run it on your main PC or secondary PCs. Essentially you host Audiogridder like it's an instrument that's your "client" and run it again as a "server" the server hosts your virtual instrument and gets its own dedicated core. So you end up with say DIVA on its own core, Zebra on another, Falcon on another etc

That DESTROYS any other options on Mac or PC for power

If you run out of cores you can add another PC or two or three and do the same. Audiogridder sends MIDI and audio from one PC to another. With quality networking cables, and quality routers and network cards the secondary PCs have imperceptible latency as well of less than a MS. It's also possible to send the GUI from one plugin across the network to another in Audiogridder that will introduce an additional few MS in latency which is not relevant in a live setting as you just need Audio and MIDI. Think of how fast DANTE or Madi handles hundreds of channels of digital audio over Cat5e or better

As far as controllers Gig Performer is dead simple. Once you get the hand of it it's Drag and Drop and you can align any controls together like a word processor

If you set up your "rack spaces" which is what Gig Performer calls them to mimic what physicals controls you have available it's dead simple and you can tear through it. Everything can be labeled as well right in screen

If you end up renting, or borrowing, ot switching out a controller on the road, it' also dead simple to make adjustments for your initial setup

You also get global rack spaces to program for your entire show, and individual rack spaces for each song, and then going deeper you can get variety of them that can change during each song

For example if you set filter cutoff for one knob for "DIVA" in your first song, that knob will transform instantly to control cutoff for "The Legend HZ" on the second or maybe you want that knob to control one thing during the verses and another during the synth solo part, that's were the variations come into play

Once you wrap your head around it you will never look back

So you're using an instance of Audio Grabber for each plugin inserted in GP?
Sounds similar to VE Pro.