Software vs Hardware

[BONES]

If you think humanity is nothing more than a plague, then what to worry about?

How about the rest of the planet?

Apart from 20 times overkill by nuclear destruction, it is very unlikely that we are able to destroy nature.

I'm sure the dodos would appreciate that sentiment if they were still around to do so. You really should stop now, you're just showing how uncaring people are, narrowly focused on only what they, as individuals, want and nothing outside that even exists.

ahh, i´m dumb ? .....thank you !

Smart people can say and do dumb things. I have no idea if you're dumb but what you were saying definitely was.

you care for my money ?

No but I care that someone else might read this thread and think they need to spend more than they actually do.

ohh, a teacher is enlighten me.

Well, I just did a test with Studio One and with an empty project loaded, with 8 empty audio tracks and 8 empty instrument tracks, CPU spikes at a horrendous 1.1% when I press play, quickly settling to 0.4% after a bar or two (as measured from Task Manager on the 8.8" gaming handheld I bought for around US$550). So that's how much CPU a DAW actually uses, which begs the question - what is Gig Performer (or whatever you're using) doing that makes it so essential that you have as much single-core power as you can possibly afford?

Waiting now for some links, so i can step up my game........

Perhaps you could tell us which effects you're using so we can make some useful suggestions for you?

A single core can only process a limited amount of data at a time at a given speed

Given the CPU load I measured above, unless the CPU in my handheld has 200 cores, rather than the 16 threads it tells Task Manager it has, then it shouldn't be problem, should it? I probably should have used Resource Monitor to check if that 0.4% CPU load was bringing any of the cores/threads to its knees but it hardly seemed necessary.

Maybe that's not an issue for you based on the instruments you use and the amount of polyphony you use at a time, but it can be for others

Sorry, not seeing it. If I can pre-load a whole set and run entire songs on stage using 20%-25% of the available CPU power of my teeny-tiny little gaming handheld, I don't see why anyone else would need 5 times as much power just to host one or two instruments being played live, plus a few effects. So what am I missing here?

So many users find it helpful to manage the cores you are using so you have complete control over everything

So many people are complete idiots, it's hard to know where those people fall without a bit more detail.

[BONES]

I've measured other keyboards that are significantly slower.

Why do you do this? Why don't you just trust your fingers/ears to tell you when the latency is acceptable or not? That was the point I was trying to make about my bandmate - when you don't know what the latency is, you don't tend to notice it until it gets to a significant number. I think somewhere around 20ms (round-trip, not just the buffer size) is about the limit for us, anything less than that feels perfectly OK. So to make sure everything works on stage, we tend to ramp our buffer size up - I mostly use a 64 sample buffer (8ms round-trip latency) when I'm working, because I can, but we ramp it up to 128 samples for live work (11.5ms round-trip), just to be on the safe side. I can't tell the difference but a) I'm not a musician's arsehole and b) I tend to play early most of the time anyway.

When I play The Grandeur at a 32-sample ASIO buffer size, it's far more immediate than when playing it at 256-samples. It's not psychological, it's absolutely perceptible.

That's a big difference, though, and going straight from one to the other will make it more obvious. I still think that you notice mostly because you know. Try getting someone else to set the latency and see how easy it is to pick without anything to compare it to. i.e. don't go from one to another, just see how one random setting feels in isolation. You might surprise yourself.

With the Nord setup (2ms response), by the time the sound is monitored, there's probably 3+ms additional latency.

Yeah, we don't do monitoring on stage. We don't have an y amps to compete with so we can just play along to the FoH, so that stuff is not particularly relevant to us. I also find that it's easy enough to compensate for latency, my brain tends to do it automatically without any conscious input from me.

To play the songs we're doing, I need a two tier keyboard rig.
I was making it work with a single keyboard, but with only a split-second to switch sounds... if anything goes wrong on any of those changes... the part is borked.
Even with the best of software rigs, I would still likely take out the pair of Nords (as controllers). They're actually on the smaller/lighter side. The 88 is about 42-lbs and the Compact is 23-lbs

My entire set-up is less than 5kg, including my two-tier stand. When we fly it all goes in my carry-on.

Good idea with the keytar and stand. I've thought about adding one... but just haven't done it. Several local guys are using them. That's partly why I've avoided it.

Yeah, I can see that. I bought a new one a few years ago, a cool looking Yamaha thing with built in sounds (that I'll never use), to differentiate my side-project from the main game. I just haven't found the time to get it working with my rig. It's mini-keys though, so probably not for you. (All my keyboards now are mini-keys.)

[IvyBirds]

Sorry, not seeing it. If I can pre-load a whole set and run entire songs on stage using 20%-25% of the available CPU power of my teeny-tiny little gaming handheld, I don't see why anyone else would need 5 times as much power just to host one or two instruments being played live, plus a few effects. So what am I missing here?

What you are describing is that you are not allocating your CPU cores manually, and that whatever VST Host you are using live is doing that for you, awesome. Glad that is working for you

That doesn't work for me

I have multiple plugins that make very heavy use of a CPU core and in the midst of a live show I don't want my VST Host or OS to decide to put them on the same core

Anyone who has spent any time on KVR will see the forum is full of people who have real world first hand experience with high CPU usage with various plugins

So I want to manage that process myself, the fact you don't is awesome but you are not me and use different plugins than I do played in a different way

On top of that I am using amp modelers, reverbs, and other effects that you are not. How do I know this? Because if you were, you would not think managing CPU cores was not needed

[Funky40]

here, this is a patch with the sole purpose to load one single sample into a granular sampler, then jam away with realtime play, no sequenzing. play keyboard and jam with faders and knobs at the same time. (screenshot somehwre below

this patch was loading my M2mac totally till under the roof => on one single core
On my M4 is it right now at up to 63% on one core. But i´ve set the audio buffer smaller now and probably added more stuff


why so many plugins:
if a patch is finished in it´s core element, the "creative musik making" part, then i can add more outboard, tailor the sound further, keep the sound allways under control, add more options to manipulate the sound. Many things to be explored CPU power is your friend here


This here is in HW NOT doable !
and that whole thing is also NOT doable in any DAW, respectivly ***NOT*** feasable to do.
You had there no chance to overlook whats going on.
It would NOT be feasable to come back later to a once created patch, and play with it. The workload to relearn the things would be....unfunny / to say the least.

This patch for example incorporates a quite complex routing around the Zynaptic vocoder on a one-knob CC control.

Screenshot 2025-04-26 at 13.42.59.png

Green is the instrument.
those with a red stripe, those are bypassed plugins ( no cPU load, audio can pass thru)
i have these on HW-buttons and can enable/deactivate by button presses. Haptics anybody ?
(or it has been just tests)
black are GPs own plugin blocks. audio mixer, audio gainstage. very little to qussi no CPU load.
nevertheless, they load the system too.....i have a patch where the system starts to bail out /anyway.

Blue are the FX blocks. Any sort of plugins that the DAWs rate as FX.
they "control" my sound, these "make" my sound, or are core "Jam-sound manipulation-FX"
the sampler (instrument) is here Halion7.




this is an extremly versatile to jam patch with.
the speciality of doing such thing in the SW-realm is:
use a node based, non track based host !...then you´re free to create complex routings AND you can have an overlookability on all this.
In SW can i switch whole rountings by the flickr of one single knob. -imo- Not doable in HW at this point. We can create in the node based host extremly complex routing setups.*
(* that was the reason in first place why i "totally" switched over to Sw-based setups / you can´t do such jam FX setups in HW)

But, point is; the whole midi CC mapping functionality.
You require to be able to freely create morphs to realise all that (the routing by the flickr of one knob as just one example) For that, you require to be able to draw CC curvatures freely**.

** "this" is in general your tool to make such a patch ---nicely--- jamable.
We can setup each HW control in a way, that it just feels perfect on the Fingers !
...tactile feel anybody ?

plugins DO have so and so often a totally un-refined curvature vs. it´s parameters and how they behave with linear setup controls. Also: dependend on the jam-needs, would we sometimes like to see differently setup curvatures vs. specific single jams.

Changed curvatures can totally change the whole sweetspot charakteristics vs. your jammy patch.
The better your patch becomes, the more refined your controls allready are, the more picky one -the artist- becomes,....and the more would even finer corrections change the game. This is a dialectic process.

So, CC mappings ARE key !
these define at the end of the day, how, and how good you can jam along with such a patch.

The ability to control many different parameters, even within different plugins, from just one HW control element, opens up doors you´d never imagine, until you´re there. Cause, we can not only create nifty FX morphs, fun stuff, more subtle stuff, ...we can also create "adjustment-related" morphs ! There lies another big, in fact HUGE power.
and that´s another reason why someone like me would end up with way more plugins incorporated into such a patch, than you´d think that was needed.


i can work on such patches over 6 months to do the CC refinements, and to add more outboard. But then, from there, can i further refine everything over the next year, one-and-a-half or two.
Thats how this game can work.

For example, the time invested to patch a HW modular, => can flow here into something ever growing.
This IS the creation of personal, VERY personalised, own, ...instruments !
That´s nolonger just dealing with plugins. This is "to create" new instruments, by using given plugins, and turn these (plugins) into patch-blocks within your open "patch-frame", your node based plugin-host.


here, a CC curve correction vs. a NICE Reverb,
feels afterwards ***entierly*** different on the fingers.,

REverb_decay_curve.png

small details ! they pile up
the haptical feel, the tactile feel with my setup, and playing with alltready created patches, is beyond the feel HW could ever give me. This is nolonger anything comparable -for me-.

To each his own ! totally.
But stop post -please- that utter nonsense and rubbish vs. Sw-based setups and how much better HW shall be. it´s nolonger funny.

Please, make stamenets vs. your context. leave out generalisations without any context given.
Things ARE a mixed bag of Pros and Cons.
allways

[IvyBirds]

here, this is a patch with the sole purpose to load one single sample into a granular sampler, then jam away with realtime play, no sequenzing. play keyboard and jam with faders and knobs at the same time. (screenshot somehwre below

Nice patch, the power of Gig Performer as a sound design and performance tool is unmatched

[Tj Shredder]

The performance problem seems that Gigperformer runs on a single core. Have you tried to do similar things in Mainstage? I would bet its possible and would perform better… You could even get this patching view in the environment, but I haven’t touched it in a long time…

[Funky40]

I would bet its possible and would perform better…

very unlikely !

GP has some nifty features vs. the CC mapping dialog.
set min-max values, AND the "draw curvature" feature.
( see again my last screenshot )
AND: in GP we use so called widgets. An inbetween layer between your HW control element and the parameters of the plugins. This is Key also !
For my understanding do we not have anywhere else this set of functionality.
It IS absolutely key !....it IS a gamechanger for me !
i abandoned for this my multi-10K-$ HW modular.


Yes, the one core only restriction is a heavy drawback. And the core GP team is playing it down for my taste. But they live in an entirely different world. These peoples focus lies somewhere else. I understand their view.

It IS possible to use several GP instances, and just send audio or even midi from one to another.
But this solution falls apart for me cause of the hassle with the file management which is then separated too.


on the other side, what i could achive with an M2mac was allready quite nice.
what i can achive with an M4mac is allready "really" nice.
So, there´s that also

with Synths like Serum 2 and the upcoming Zebra3 will i much likely turn to a dual GP-instances setup, yes. But then only for the instrument part on it´s own. And only for those few Synths.

[Tj Shredder]

I can do this kind of stuff either in Bitwig or in Max/MSP both use all cores… But usually the time to learn the tools might be the show stopper…
Since I switched to a Macbook Pro M2, I am the happiest heavy patcher in the world. No fan and I can even run Bitwig and Max in parallel… The previous Mac would get to its knees with one of them and that with a roaring fan…

[IvyBirds]

The performance problem seems that Gigperformer runs on a single core. Have you tried to do similar things in Mainstage? I would bet its possible and would perform better… You could even get this patching view in the environment, but I haven’t touched it in a long time…

I think you misunderstand what Gig Performer actually is and why people love it so much. Gig Performer is at its core a modular framework that allows you to plug in all of your DAWs, virtual Instruments and effects, hardware synths and effects, MIDI, Audio and MIDI Interfaces, Sequencers and Controllers with each other however you want. Think of it as a giant modular synth or patchbay for all of your audio production and performance tools no matter what they are or even if they are not on the same computer that Gig Performer is, but beyond your production tools you also get to decide how the CPUs and cores function on your local machine and on any other machines on the network

Gig Performer's main interface being a single core however is simply a non-issue, many users prefer it that way. It's designed to run on a single core and be as lightweight as possible on that core. You can then use a myriad of tools like Gig Performer's own GP Relayer, Blue Cat's Connector, Audio Gridder, and other tools to manage how your cores are allocated which is a VASTLY superior methodology

In Gig performer if I want to load a VST I can decide if I want to load it on the same core as GP itself or on a different core on my local machine GP is on or any of the other PCs I have on my network

If on the same core I just load it there, if on another core I load Audiogridder as an instrument or effect and then choose what core on what system I want the DSP for my synth plugin or effect plugin to run on and use that. If I want to use Cubase, Studio One, Live, Protools, Acid, Logic or basically any other DAW. If I do that than those tools are managing what cores are being used

If I don't want to use Audiogridder, or a DAW I can use Blue Cat's Connector which even allows for using different computers across the internet if you want

Mainstage is awesome for live use if you are already heavily invested in the Apple Ecosystem and are a logic user and never want to leave the walled garden ecosystem of Mother Apple nad it's proprietary formats

Gig Performer is awesome for people that don't wanted to be beholden to all things Apple, that want to use a software package like this as a serious sound design tool and want more control over how hardware controllers and hardware synths integrate with the software, or just want a rock solid way to seamlessly and easily integrate all of their audio production tools on a live performance

If you hang out in the GP forums you will find a ton of people who have left Mainstage behind to use GP and will never go back

[Funky40]

I can do this kind of stuff either in Bitwig or in

what i posted vs. CC mapping, you can do that in Bitwig ?
min-max values PLUS draw freely your CC curvatures ?
( Everybody told me it´s not doable....and i checked within BW also.....i have 4.0 or 4.5)

If you hang out in the GP forums you will find a ton of people who have left Mainstage behind to use GP and will never go back

yes, they say all the same:...and never looked back....

but thats all vs. live onStage uses. I can follow these points.

Gig Performer's main interface being a single core however is simply a non-issue, many users prefer it that way.

yeah, they have stability and low latency as their main focus in mind.
i see that point too.

just, with a slot system a la nord Modular 1, "i think", all could be had in one go.
stability, low latency, ....multicore support.



What you´re saying vs. the multicore usage is true for you ! But it´s not a given. One has to work into it.

"Relayer" is for example not working for me with Live ( the only DAW i can handle so far)
It is not showing up. tryed everything.
Well, i´m on a new mac since one week. I can try to de-and reinstall the whole thing again ( Live and GP)

BCs "connect" makes problems here too. Not good enough for me.
Relayer GP vs. GP worked when i tryed. I maded thorough tests.
I had audio inconsistencys, different sound. I guess it would be ok for most things.
But the filehandling issue remains

yes, audiogridder, i really NEED to look into that one.

[BONES]

What you are describing is that you are not allocating your CPU cores manually

Why would I? If there is any better way to waste my time, I can't imagine what it might be, given that I already have more cores than I'll ever need.

... and that whatever VST Host you are using live is doing that for you, awesome. Glad that is working for you

If my host couldn't do that effectively, I'd be looking for a different host. That said, it was switchable in Orion and it made no difference to anything, really, as Windows seemed to do a perfectly good job of it without any help from Orion.

I have multiple plugins that make very heavy use of a CPU core and in the midst of a live show I don't want my VST Host or OS to decide to put them on the same core

Like what? I don't think I have a plugin that uses more than half a core. Studio One reports CPU very conservatively. It tells me that a 32 voice unison patch from bx_oberhausen is using 43% when Task Manager reports just 11% CPU usage.

Anyone who has spent any time on KVR will see the forum is full of people who have real world first hand experience with high CPU usage with various plugins

Yeah, people I assume don't know how to work efficiently.

you are not me

Right.

On top of that I am using amp modelers, reverbs, and other effects that you are not.

So which one of us is making poor decisions, the guy who can just get on with his work on a $500 computer or the guy who has to waste his money on expensive computers and his time manually allocating CPU cores to plugins? Seriously, if I felt like I needed to do that, I'd be finding less CPU-intensive plugins because I know that in a mix it would make no difference whatsoever, especially through a PA in a live venue. And, for the record, we use multiple amp sims in most of our songs.

here, this is a patch with the sole purpose to load one single sample into a granular sampler, then jam away with realtime play, no sequenzing. play keyboard and jam with faders and knobs at the same time. (screenshot somehwre below

I think you need to understand that your use-case is way out there, in no way typical of what anyone else is doing, just as there will be others who will absolutely need to do what they do with hardware. I can't even understand what it is you are trying to do, it certainly doesn't seem like anything usefully musical.

[IvyBirds]

What you are describing is that you are not allocating your CPU cores manually

Why would I? If there is any better way to waste my time, I can't imagine what it might be, given that I already have more cores than I'll ever need.

... and that whatever VST Host you are using live is doing that for you, awesome. Glad that is working for you

If my host couldn't do that effectively, I'd be looking for a different host. That said, it was switchable in Orion and it made no difference to anything, really, as Windows seemed to do a perfectly good job of it without any help from Orion.

I have multiple plugins that make very heavy use of a CPU core and in the midst of a live show I don't want my VST Host or OS to decide to put them on the same core

Like what? I don't think I have a plugin that uses more than half a core. Studio One reports CPU very conservatively. It tells me that a 32 voice unison patch from bx_oberhausen is using 43% when Task Manager reports just 11% CPU usage.

Anyone who has spent any time on KVR will see the forum is full of people who have real world first hand experience with high CPU usage with various plugins

Yeah, people I assume don't know how to work efficiently.

you are not me

Right.

On top of that I am using amp modelers, reverbs, and other effects that you are not.

So which one of us is making poor decisions, the guy who can just get on with his work on a $500 computer or the guy who has to waste his money on expensive computers and his time manually allocating CPU cores to plugins? Seriously, if I felt like I needed to do that, I'd be finding less CPU-intensive plugins because I know that in a mix it would make no difference whatsoever, especially through a PA in a live venue. And, for the record, we use multiple amp sims in most of our songs.

here, this is a patch with the sole purpose to load one single sample into a granular sampler, then jam away with realtime play, no sequenzing. play keyboard and jam with faders and knobs at the same time. (screenshot somehwre below

I think you need to understand that your use-case is way out there, in no way typical of what anyone else is doing, just as there will be others who will absolutely need to do what they do with hardware. I can't even understand what it is you are trying to do, it certainly doesn't seem like anything usefully musical.

Again Bones your experiences are different than mine.

As for what you can't understand well if you legit don't understand that says more about your lack of skills and creativity than anything else

What's not musical about using musical instruments however?

You seem really ignorant to the reality of what I do.

If you want more info great, ask nicely and drop the profanity

1.)I use different plugins than you do
2.)I make different music than you do
3.)I make heavy use of effects
4.)my needs are different than yours
5.) I will take you at your word. I can do no more to help you understand points 1-4
6.)The plugins I want to use in the way I want to use them for my music won't run on a $500 laptop

If you legit want to have a conversation we can do that, just ask.
If not have a great night

[Tj Shredder]

I can do this kind of stuff either in Bitwig or in

what i posted vs. CC mapping, you can do that in Bitwig ?
min-max values PLUS draw freely your CC curvatures ?
( Everybody told me it´s not doable....and i checked within BW also.....i have 4.0 or 4.5)

Yes, you can…
What I don‘t understand is why the patch you showed is eating so much CPU. Its mainly Halion with a granular patch, a spectral gate and Orange Vocoder plus equalizers and compressors. Its not big compared to what I usually put in my impro sets.
Controlling the way how cores are distributed still might be the culprit. I would not know how to do that efficiently and relying on the intelligence of the OS or host seems better than what I could do „controlling“ it by hand.
Is your Halion patch based on a specific factory preset? I found Padshop easier to do granular than doing the same in Halion…
I have a granular patch in Max/MSP that really uses a ton of grains but that could only bring my old computer at its limits…
How may grains is it playing in there? If its a lot and Halion would be forced to only use a single core, it could be difficult…

I would like to listen to your music. I bet its different than Bones (which I do respect…; - )

[Funky40]

Ok, we go here Off-Topic !
and: it´s a long post !

I can do this kind of stuff either in Bitwig or in

what i posted vs. CC mapping, you can do that in Bitwig ?
min-max values PLUS draw freely your CC curvatures ?
( Everybody told me it´s not doable....and i checked within BW also.....i have 4.0 or 4.5)

Yes, you can…

Okeey !
That´s News to me.
Do you know since which version of BW this is working ?
I have 4.4.1 right now.

What I don‘t understand is why the patch you showed is eating so much CPU. Its mainly Halion with a granular patch, a spectral gate and Orange Vocoder plus equalizers and compressors.

I have no concerns with the CPU load vs. GP. (GigPerformer)
For my feel has ableton Live a significant higher CPU load.

Ok, i checked, playing with that Patch right now.
It goes up to a reported 66% CPU load in GP. ( that´s with many plugins bypassed. quite similar if not exactly same as in the screenshot)

Halion7 loaded alone into a empty rack, wired and played goes up to 7% CPU load, spikes at 9%.
it´s set to 8 samples ( no higher setting available)

Two of the FX are hosted within BCs Patchwork host, and oversampled there within. They were on my old M2 mac something like 25% CPU load, each.
Just checked, on my M4studio it´s up to 10%. Take two and HAL7, and we are at nearly 30% at unlucky spiking. The vocoder is up to 13% in spikes. Now we are @ 40% with only 4 plugins.
My real live math, haha.

This looks all normal to me. i´m on 48khz sample rate. I have set the buffer size down to 128samples on my M4mac. Tahts was 192 or 256 on my M2.
My M4 mac (with the small mini) is crackling earlier than my M2mac did, i think.
I could run my M2mini to somehting like 85% CPU load, which left some air for spiking.
That patch was definitly running an M2mac completly into its knees, on sayed one core.

I never thought that GP was a CPU eater. In contrary ! I think it deals perfectly well with plugins.
Very happy with that whole combination

Its not big compared to what I usually put in my impro sets.

Ahh, interesting !
i thought my patches are allready quite wild. What type of music are your impro sets on ?

I would like to listen to your music. I bet its different than Bones (which I do respect…; - )

haha. I have really nothing to show. I never made any tracks with all this.
I permanently develope new patches, new techniques, and new tricks to create a good sound.

Well, i had one older Jam online, can´t find it.
I´ll see. i start with DAWs fresh again these days.

This particular patch here tequires some dive in time, to be able to play it good, live performance worthy. But that´s not my idea of trackmaking to just put a jam online.

playing it now with firefox open, it´s allready roughly crackling

[BONES]

Again Bones your experiences are different than mine.

I don't think they are, really, it's just the decisions each of us makes around those experiences. It's where we each see our priorities, or how clearly we see things.

As for what you can't understand well if you legit don't understand that says more about your lack of skills and creativity than anything else

That's likely the case. It's why I come here and ask a lot of questions instead of just getting on with it. Of course, it's equally likely that my level of creativity and skill is so far above yours that I can't conceive of anyone not being able to see what I can see.

What's not musical about using musical instruments however?

Well, if you're The Who, for example, then they were as much things to smash up on stage as anything else. Others have instruments adorning the walls of their studio, presumably because it makes them feel a bit special or some other, equally pathetic thing.

1.)I use different plugins than you do

Yes, you clearly make poor choices.

2.)I make different music than you do

Do you? Are you sure?

3.)I make heavy use of effects

Why?

4.)my needs are different than yours

Are they, really? I mean, our needs probably aren't really all that different.

6.)The plugins I want to use in the way I want to use them for my music won't run on a $500 laptop

I think they probably will, if you know how to use them properly. Name a few and I'll try the demos to see how it goes.

If you legit want to have a conversation we can do that, just ask.

The thing is, you never give any useful information unless I drag it out of you. The perfect example is the point above. Why just say "the plugins I use...", why not say "plugins like X, Y and Z..." and give us some useful, actionable information?