Sample CDs dev & copyrights, things I don't undertsand..

[SampleScience]

OK, I'm an aspiring sample CD develloper, I've already post some sounds I have made (http://samplingart.250free.com/samples.html), but when I see other devellopers like AMG or e-Lab sellings CDs with questionnable contents I'm asking myself what are the real rules when it comes to selling samples.

Here's some examples of products I doubt are 100% legit & the reasons why:

e-Lab - the Vinylistics Series



I'm sure e-Lab put a lot of work in these volumes but if you have downloaded the free Vinylistics samples that we're available on the e-Lab website you have probably recognise the "Skull Snaps" break there. And here's the vynilistic mp3 demo where you can clearly hear the "When The Levee Breaks" by Led Zeppelin:

http://demo.bigfishaudio.net/demo/vn1.mp3

Did they bought the rights for these two breaks?

Electronisounds - Ambient Dreams


http://www.electronisounds.com/AmbientDreams.html

Download the demo pack & hear an Akai XE8 sample. I know it short, but I thought it was illegal to sell sounds from dum machines & sound modules. You can also recognise some other drum machine samples on other Electronisounds sample CDs. Maybe he was the original drummer for these drum machines, who knows? But he's not alone, ModernBeats.com & Dangerous Bear Underground are doing the same.

AMG - Norman Cook - Skip To My Loops



Norman Cook is a DJ & if you read interviews about him you will know that he samples old vynils drum loops, cut them, re-arrange the slices in his sampler & passes the sound trought FXs. Even on the Amg websites you can read from a review: "...some loops are created from cup-ups of old favourites. Others are obviously programmed. There are several old pals..."

Check for yourself: http://www.amguk.co.uk/cds/skiptomyloopsrev.html

AMG - Coldcut's Kleptomania!



From the AMG website: "...Instead of presenting boring multi-sample sets, this release featured sounds carefully culled from a massive and well-researched record collection, lovingly assembled over a period of years. With old-school jazz and soul drum-loops, voice hits, classic stabs and breaks, here was an early and vital insight into the raw material of the dance producer."

Check for yourself: http://www.amguk.co.uk/cds/coldcutkleprev.html

I thought it was illegal to sell samples from records! And with over 1,000 samples on this disc, I doubt they are all clear & safe to use unless they have recorded & synthetize most of the sounds from scratch., which I doubt.

Dangerous Bear Underground - The Hollow Sun Classic Instruments Reason reFill



This collection contains samples from classic drum machines, again, I thought it was illegal to sell samples from drum machines & sound modules. Hollow Sun themself will sell these samples but did they have the authorisations from Roland, Akai & Linn? It could be.

As an aspiring sample cd producer I feel that this is unfair, it would be a lot more easier for me to just samples the sample based instruments & records I have than getting into all the trouble & work of synthetising my own sound from scratch!

Re-editing, slicing & passing an already existed drum loop trough a bunch of effects is a lot easier than record your own stuff or synthetising your own percussions from scratch.

Why these companies can get away with it without getting into any trouble with copyrights laws & their owners?

[pljones]

I thought it was illegal to sell samples from records!

No. If you want to take a snippet of someone else's work and sell it, you'd have to get a license from the current intellectual property rights owner. It may be that these sample CDs have had all the copyright clearance undertaken (and that, in part, is what you're paying for).

[DevonB]

Always remember, just because someone does something, it's not necessarily morally or legally right. Then again, it could be as simple as everything was cleared. For instance, Atmosphere has sample-based sounds in it, but Eric either already owned the sounds, or he cleared them. It's not that hard to ask these days in the well connected internet age.

Devon

[whyterabbyt]

SampleScience quoth Download the demo pack & hear an Akai XE8 sample. I know it short, but I thought it was illegal to sell sounds from dum machines & sound modules.

Nope, not quite. there are a few facts and points you have to consider.

It is a breach of copyright to reproduce and redistribute someone else's recorded performance, or produce a derivative of that recorded performance without permission.

If one has permission, it is not a breach of copyright.

Many synth companies have given tacit or explicit approval of the direct recording of their synthesisers, but some may or may not explicitly disallow the core sounds (ie waves) used on the synth from being copies, or the 'factory presets'. It is generally considered highly unlikely that a synth manufacturer could claim copyright over ones own presets.

If the sound sample is based on a source which is not a 'performance' ie analogue synth or drum machine was used, then there can be no breach of copyright.

Many sample libraries explicitly deny reuse in any resampling context. Hence doing so is a breach of the license terms.

[SampleScience]

SampleScience quoth Download the demo pack & hear an Akai XE8 sample. I know it short, but I thought it was illegal to sell sounds from dum machines & sound modules.

Nope, not quite. there are a few facts and points you have to consider.

It is a breach of copyright to reproduce and redistribute someone else's recorded performance, or produce a derivative of that recorded performance without permission.

If one has permission, it is not a breach of copyright.

Many synth companies have given tacit or explicit approval of the direct recording of their synthesisers, but some may or may not explicitly disallow the core sounds (ie waves) used on the synth from being copies, or the 'factory presets'. It is generally considered highly unlikely that a synth manufacturer could claim copyright over ones own presets.

If the sound sample is based on a source which is not a 'performance' ie analogue synth or drum machine was used, then there can be no breach of copyright.

Many sample libraries explicitly deny reuse in any resampling context. Hence doing so is a breach of the license terms.

The Akay XE8 is a sample base instrument (read here: http://www.hollowsun.com/vintage/xe8/). How can I know that the sample cd company have the rights to distribute the sound?

Generally when a company have a liscense to use certains sounds it is written somewhere on the website or on the product that Roland (for example) approve the use of their sounds. It is not the case here as far as I know.

[DevonB]

The Akay XE8 is a sample base instrument (read here: http://www.hollowsun.com/vintage/xe8/). How can I know that the sample cd company have the rights to distribute the sound?

Ah, the joys and pains of buying copyright free sample CD's. This is where reputation comes into play. Spectrasonics I'm extremely confident that the content is 100% copyright free, and that I can use them in my productions without getting sued. If something seems wrong, treat with caution is what it boils down to. You can always contact the company in question and ask them directly too you know.

Devon

[SampleScience]

I thought it was illegal to sell samples from records!

No. If you want to take a snippet of someone else's work and sell it, you'd have to get a license from the current intellectual property rights owner. It may be that these sample CDs have had all the copyright clearance undertaken (and that, in part, is what you're paying for).

Yeah but, it is realist to think that I can take hundreds of sounds snippets, reCycle them into new sounds & get the official authorization from each copyright holders & still making money from my final product? I guess that's why so many sample CDs are so expensive...

[Bassballjg]

From:

http://www.hollowsun.com/terms.html

"COPYRIGHT NOTICE

Copyright of the Hollow Sun website extends to the design, concept, original artwork and the content of all text which may not be used, copied or used or published verbatim in whole or in part on paper or on a website or on any electronic media such as audio CD or CD-ROM, DVD, etc., without the prior permission of Hollow Sun. Neither can the text be used verbatim in whole or as part of a script for broadcast or distribution in or as part of any video, televisual, audio or multi-media format without prior permission from Hollow Sun. Educational establishments are excluded from this stipulation providing no commercial gain is made from the use of the copyrighted information and material available at Hollow Sun.

Hollow Sun does not (and cannot) lay claim to or hold any copyright on the original source of many of the sounds available for download on the website. However, Hollow Sun's copyright does extend to the work that may have been required to make them suitable for use in any kind of hardware or software sample playback device.

Specifically, this includes the cost/time required to buy/hire/borrow/transport the instruments and then physically record them. It also extends to any and/or all sample editing processes such as trimming, looping (where appropriate), tuning, fades, normalisation, noise reduction and other sample editing and optimisation techniques that have been applied to the samples to make them suitable for use in any musical and/or other applications. It also extends to and includes any work done on the source instrument to actually create the resulting samples.

Hollow Sun's copyright over the sounds available for download also extends to include any specific programming processes and techniques used to make the samples suitable for use in the Akai S5000, S6000, Z4, Z8 and MPC4000 samplers. Specifically, this includes keyboard/drum pad mapping, filter, filter envelope, amplitude envelope, LFO and any other settings that have been chosen to best represent the sounds/instruments that are available for download at Hollow Sun. Copyright of these settings (or similar) extends to the use of the sounds in other sampler formats.

Hollow Sun is not knowingly aware of any infringement of any copyright of the sounds/samples that are available on the website. Most of the sounds/samples come from products that ceased production many years ago (and in many cases, the actual manufacturer no longer exists) and in most cases, any 'copyright' will have expired.

Other sounds (in particular, synth sounds) have been custom programmed or otherwise manipulated and/or prepared at Hollow Sun for use on the site.

In the (rare) occasion that factory presets from a currently available product are used on the site, these have usually been 'tweaked' as appropriate for the sampling process - whatever, they are presented in the spirit of 'free publicity' for the product and sincerely hope that the the few 'tasters' provided at Hollow Sun may encourage visitors to investigate (and maybe buy) the product in question.

Hollow Sun claims no copyright over any samples/programs/sounds that are generously and altruistically 'donated' for use/download on the website but given that these samples/programs/sounds are provided freely by the donors within the spirit of the website and are placed in the public domain for free download, it is assumed that the donor understands that any claims to copyright of such donated samples/programs/sounds are forfeited. The same applies to any other data/materials that may be supplied/donated (such as photographs, images, product details and description, etc.).

Other sounds that may have been sourced from the public domain are widely available elsewhere - in this case, acknowledgement of the source is stated clearly wherever possible and it should be noted that any such samples have normally required extensive work to make them to make them acceptable and usable in any musical and/or other applications.

Hollow Sun retains the right to exploit commercially the sounds on the website in any way that is deemed appropriate to maintain the free service it offers."


This is the language as it exists on the Hollow Sun Website. The license under which Dangerous Bear Underground develops products based on samples from Hollow Sun stipulates that these samples are the property of Hollow Sun and as such are legally distributable by Dangerous Bear Underground under that license. I have no reason to believe that this assurance is false, or made in bad faith. I am satisfied to the extent of my actual knowledge of the material in question and of the legal issues surrounding its use that the samples made available by Hollow Sun meet the standards of legal sample useage. These standards include 1, the samples are of analog or purely synthetic sound generators amd therefore not copyrighted, 2, the sounds from instruments with preset memories are not samples of the presets but of original patches, 3, the samples are not samples of the raw digital waveforms or digitally copied from the rom but are of original patches created on the instrument, 4, no loops presented in any Dangerous Bear Underground product are sampled from any prerecorded work such as a vinyl record, they are all original beats created by myself or one of my associates.

No legal action by any copyright holder has ever been taken against Dangerous Bear Underground with respect to the issue of illegal sampling or redistribution of samples. No legal action of any kind whatsoever has ever been taken or threatened over any copyright issue whatsoever against myself, or any company or band with which I have been affiliated, at any time for any reason in my musical career. I have no knowledge of any legal action taken or threatened against Hollow Sun or Steve Howell by any person or other legal entity regarding the copyright of any sample made available made available by Hollow sun.

Steve Howell, the owner of Hollow Sun, has been a sample library developer since the days of the Akai S900 almost 20 years ago (see History at the HS website). He is responsible for a lot of sounds that have been used on a lot of records over those years. Given this extensive experience I am willing to defer to his judgement as to the when and how it's legal to sample something or not. This is not to say that what he says or does is true because said or done by him, just that he has a lot of experience and I doubt that he would so flagrantly and publicly break the law.

As for Dangerous Bear Underground, I formed the company as a platform for my sampling and synth programming talents, to put my creativity into the mix of the soundware marketplace. Licensing the Hollow Sun collection was both a business and a creatve decision. I used them a lot, as do a lot of other folks, in my own music so it was a natural first step to take. The collection has provided me with a ready source of high quality samples with which to create sounds for Reason's NNXT, Wusikstation, SampleTank2 and others. In each case, the native synthesis resources of the respective engines have been employed to create original patches, uniquely recombining the samples. So the dBu Hollow Sun products are not simply a repackaging of presets from a Korg or Yamaha box. Notwithstanding the translations of the Hollow Sun website presets presented in library form in the Reason ReFill and sf2 Edition, the thrust of ongoing dBu development in the Hollow Sun line is using the samples as a source of synthesis elements for our supported engines. I would never have undertaken this venture had I any reason to believe that it was illegal, and to this day I have no such reason. I am not a criminal by either habit or inclination. Any implication that I am is baseless and the crudest sort of character assasination.

On the other hand, the Dangerous Beats products are all my own original samples. The forthcoming Dangerous Drums and the products to be based on the Wavebank 1 sampling project are all mine as well, recorded here in my studio. The latter in fact includes many waveforms generated by waveform creation software such as Coagula. So trust me, I know what it's like to sweat over looping your waveforms. That project, begun in October, was supposed to have taken a few weeks and now I can't realistically project any product until March at the earliest. I can assure you that every scruple is being observed in sampling the synths involved. And Yohan Rucker, the drummer featured on Dangerous Drums, did not steal his kit or download the bongos from a newsgroup.

As a musician, producer and now soundware developer, I am a strong defender of copyright law. I wish I got royalties for every time I've refused to sample a record or cd on a session. Steve also believes in the sanctity of intellectual property. I recommend to you a recent thread in the Yahoo Logic Users' Group about sample licensing and fair use. It covered a different area than this one, but Steve participated in it extensively and it is a good source to read his views on sampling law in his own words. Though we have friendly busness relations, I do not speak for him here, except to affirm my belief in the legality and morality of his activities. You will note that nowhere in that thread, whose topic was ownership of sounds, that no one questioned the propriety of the Hollow Sun operation.

Whether or not the actions of either myself or Mr. Howell have at any point been in technical breach of any statute or court ruling concerning digital audio and copyright, I can't say. I am not an attorney and I do not have comprehensive knowledge of the relevant law. I do however firmly assert that niether Dangerous Bear Underground or Hollow Sun have done anything immoral whatsoever. Some will probably disagree, but I am simply saying that within my best understanding of the law, the activities of my soundware company are strongly on the "light" side of the grey area of sampling electronic musical instruments.

John Gibson
BassballJG
dBu

[androidlove]

This is a very weird subject that produces vague answers. Is there a lawyer in the house? Is there a reference to a real case?

[nool]

... like a killer shark smelling blood in the watah

i doubt that lawyers give advice on anything for free

but maybe i'm wrong heh

[whyterabbyt]

androidlove quoth This is a very weird subject that produces vague answers. Is there a lawyer in the house? Is there a reference to a real case?

I dont believe anything I said was vague at all. If you tell me what you think was vague, I can clarify.

Meanwhile, here's some real lawyers talking about copyright infringement in a real case....

http://fsnews.findlaw.com/cases/6th/04a0297p.html

[vista]

the solution:

make your own tunes with real hard- and softsynths.

[D-Fusion]

Hmm
As i see it the companies are alowed to sell their sample cd as long as they have got the permision from the original author.

Well that´s ok, but what about the people who create music with them?
They would also have to ask for permision From the original author of the sound.
As i see it you have permision to buy it but not a license to use it

(Please correct me if i´m wrong)

[whyterabbyt]

D-Fusion quoth
Well that´s ok, but what about the people who create music with them?
They would also have to ask for permision From the original author of the sound.
As i see it you have permision to buy it but not a license to use it

Nope, because the license the sample company should have negotiated with the original copyright holder would specifically allow the reuse of that sample in a musical context, in performance or a composition by those the sample company redistribute to. However it almost certainly does not allow someone buying that sample from the sample company to redistribute it as their own sample, or modify it and redsitribute as a 'new' sample.

[C00kie]

I thought it was illegal to sell samples from drum machines & sound modules.

I recently donated my unique drum machine to HollowSun. No legal piece of paper was signed, and I think there is no problem.

I bought the original machine and may do with it what I like. Any piece of music I create with it is my intellectual property. That is what musical instruments are for: to make music.

Now suppose I create a "minimalistic" piece that consists of solely single beats, I may publish that and it will be mine. Nobody may touch it without my permission. If it were a Roland machine, then Roland could not sue me.

By donating the machine I agreed upon the publisher HollowSun to edit the sounds I recorded and to publish it. Maybe I licensed them? Dunno... They did the editing etc, put effort in building the site, and in my opinion they have the right to resell or license them in any way they want. They put time and effort in it, and are allowed to make some profit.