Halion or Falcon?

[tapper mike]

As a cubase owner and a linntrument player I fully support the above.

Last year I made the jump to Cubase after giving up on Cubase about 15 years ago.
I was tired of having confusing daws like Bitwig and Ableton Live which I really couldn't get around or remember how to get around after too many times.

That being said I'm still not a huge fan of Halion and many times I'm not using mpe. It's great but I don't need it every second and when using an orchestral suite with the latest outcroppings of multi-instrument sequencers namely EW/HO as well as Best of Service The Orchestra Complete 3 and the score. I'm better off not running those mpe.

As for standard sound libraries. It's better to have a solid suite based on a sampled workstation. Korg Triton KLC for the win.
Usable sounds well organized easily accessible. I hated the UVI interface. And without mpe Halion kind of falls flat. I've loved Triton and I've complained about Triton but It's always been my bread and butter go to combi rompler when I use it for the simple or complex sounds. It doesn't take up a lot of space and the sounds load quick.

I don't see why someone who has a new computer wouldn't want to have a sound library arsenal at their disposal so long as you can access those sounds quickly You may as well try to use the full power of your new computer as that's why you got a new more powerful computer.

Just a few notes on Cubase's included library. While I'm not especially fond of Halion generic sounds I find myself on occasion reaching for Ikonica Sketch, Retrologue, Padshop trip but most especially Verve. I love those felt pianos and that's my go to "learn to play the linnstrument like a pianist" sound.

[mothra]

I don't see why someone who has a new computer wouldn't want to have a sound library arsenal at their disposal so long as you can access those sounds quickly You may as well try to use the full power of your new computer as that's why you got a new more powerful computer.

Well, Halion is a sampler, not a rompler. It's not really geared toward the Korg, or Roland, or any rompler crowd. The factory library is fine for most, they're getting on making their own sounds or playing with one of the synth engines in it. Granted the Triton is pretty awesome, I love my even older M1, but not everybody wants to play the Korg factory library that's been played over and over for 20+ years now.

[IvyBirds]

I don't see why someone who has a new computer wouldn't want to have a sound library arsenal at their disposal so long as you can access those sounds quickly You may as well try to use the full power of your new computer as that's why you got a new more powerful computer.

Well, Halion is a sampler, not a rompler. It's not really geared toward the Korg, or Roland, or any rompler crowd. The factory library is fine for most, they're getting on making their own sounds or playing with one of the synth engines in it. Granted the Triton is pretty awesome, I love my even older M1, but not everybody wants to play the Korg factory library that's been played over and over for 20+ years now.

I love to sample the Triton and M1 plugins and bring them into HALion7, especially using the spectral synth

[Echoes in the Attic]

Halion was out for me because for some odd reason it doesn't have the full feature set unless you use it in Cubase, and I'm not a Cubase guy.

What do you mean exactly?

HALion7 is built to follow the VST3 specifications. That makes sense because Steinberg created the VST3 format

That means it uses VST3 Note Expressions at the DAW level or VST3 host level for times when you want to assign a specific Modulation to a single or specific note(s) while not applying it to other notes. Things like volume, pan, tuning, and pitchbend for example

Not surprisingly Cubase does a kick ass job with VST3 Note Expressions. To utilize it efficiently you need an MPE capable controller, a Guitar that can output MIDI, or a keyboard controller that just provides polyphonic after touch.

So with HALion7 in Cubase you can take your incoming MIDI from your controller that uses MPE or Polyphonic after touch and tell Cubase what parameter(s) inside of HALion7 you want to control with whatever polyphonic expression you send Cubase

All of that data then gets stored at the individual note level in the Cubase sequencer. So you just click on a note and see all of the MPE associated with that note. Then when you go to quantize, move, copy, duplicate, or delete MIDI notes, all of their associated controller information follows. This allows for an intuitive and accurate editing of note-related data. You don't even need an MPE or Polyphonic Aftertouch controller to use this you can just click on individual notes on the timeline or piano roll and make make adjustments

If you are into using MPE you quickly come to realization that this method inside of Cubase, of having all your MPE existing outside of the plugin itself at the DAW level offers many advantages and you really start to wonder why people who claim MPE is so important to them don't use the DAW that gives them the absolute most powerful way to use that

So with HALion7 if you want to use a MPE controller or Polyphonic Aftertouch you need to use a VST Host or DAW that supports Polyphonic Note Expression, currently the best DAWs for this are Cubase and Bitwig

Again if MPE and Poly AT are ACTUALLY important to you, you should be using one of them anyway in which case HALion7 will be perhaps the best plugin on the market for doing cool things with it

Hailing is not useful in Bitwig for mpe/note expressions. It can’t even do polyphonic aftertouch. You get the poly bend but only sometimes (not legato). So zerocrossing is right outside of cubase you don’t get all the features.

[IvyBirds]

Hailing is not useful in Bitwig for mpe/note expressions. It can’t even do polyphonic aftertouch. You get the poly bend but only sometimes (not legato). So zerocrossing is right outside of cubase you don’t get all the features.

If I misspoke I apologize, I don't have experience with Bitwig, I was just told on another forum by a Bitwig fan that it worked and Bitwig advertises the fact they do note expressions so it made sense

In any case that just cements my choice that Cubase is the superior DAW to use with MPE for those that care about it, having it all run though DAW Automation is just the superior way

[SamDi]

Halion was out for me because for some odd reason it doesn't have the full feature set unless you use it in Cubase, and I'm not a Cubase guy.

What do you mean exactly?

I’m specifically looking for instruments that respond to polyphonic aftertouch. Halion needs to be running inside Cubase for it.

Oh OK I was not aware of that. That is weak indeed, that HALion doesn't support PolyAT directly

HALion7 is built to follow the VST3 specifications. That makes sense because Steinberg created the VST3 format

That means it uses VST3 Note Expressions at the DAW level or VST3 host level for times when you want to assign a specific Modulation to a single or specific note(s) while not applying it to other notes. Things like volume, pan, tuning, and pitchbend for example

Not surprisingly Cubase does a kick ass job with VST3 Note Expressions. To utilize it efficiently you need an MPE capable controller, a Guitar that can output MIDI, or a keyboard controller that just provides polyphonic after touch.

So with HALion7 in Cubase you can take your incoming MIDI from your controller that uses MPE or Polyphonic after touch and tell Cubase what parameter(s) inside of HALion7 you want to control with whatever polyphonic expression you send Cubase

All of that data then gets stored at the individual note level in the Cubase sequencer. So you just click on a note and see all of the MPE associated with that note. Then when you go to quantize, move, copy, duplicate, or delete MIDI notes, all of their associated controller information follows. This allows for an intuitive and accurate editing of note-related data. You don't even need an MPE or Polyphonic Aftertouch controller to use this you can just click on individual notes on the timeline or piano roll and make make adjustments

On the other side, if that's the case like that, you can not say, that Halion hasn't the full features with other DAWs. It's then rather that other DAWs don't support the way Halion handles polyphonic expression.

If you are into using MPE you quickly come to realization that this method inside of Cubase, of having all your MPE existing outside of the plugin itself at the DAW level offers many advantages and you really start to wonder why people who claim MPE is so important to them don't use the DAW that gives them the absolute most powerful way to use that

So with HALion7 if you want to use a MPE controller or Polyphonic Aftertouch you need to use a VST Host or DAW that supports Polyphonic Note Expression, currently the best DAWs for this are Cubase and Bitwig

Again if MPE and Poly AT are ACTUALLY important to you, you should be using one of them anyway in which case HALion7 will be perhaps the best plugin on the market for doing cool things with it

Yes VST3 note expression is very poorly supported from DAWs and from synths. E.g. the only synth beside Steinberg stuff, which supports note epression pitch is Phase Plant. All other synths, be them from NI, from Arturia, U-He or other quality brands didn't support it. OK this test was before Steinberg's attempt to forbid VST2 so maybe in the meanwhile it has changed a little bit. But I think rather not.

Hailing is not useful in Bitwig for mpe/note expressions. It can’t even do polyphonic aftertouch. You get the poly bend but only sometimes (not legato). So zerocrossing is right outside of cubase you don’t get all the features.

Yes unfortunately you are both right. I also thought BW does a good job on note expressions, because pitch as VST3 note expression is implemented. Pressure and Timbre seem to go to the MIDI messages, instead using note expressions.

BTW, what I have as problem in terms of "other DAWs support" with HALion is, that except in Nuendo the boxes shown when hoovering a GUI element are anywhere on the screen on the wrong position and often cropped so that they are unreadable. The problem is bigger, when deactiving autosizing, but not completely solved with activating it. So it's unsharp but still often wrong.

[IvyBirds]

HALion7 is built to follow the VST3 specifications. That makes sense because Steinberg created the VST3 format

That means it uses VST3 Note Expressions at the DAW level or VST3 host level for times when you want to assign a specific Modulation to a single or specific note(s) while not applying it to other notes. Things like volume, pan, tuning, and pitchbend for example

Not surprisingly Cubase does a kick ass job with VST3 Note Expressions. To utilize it efficiently you need an MPE capable controller, a Guitar that can output MIDI, or a keyboard controller that just provides polyphonic after touch.

So with HALion7 in Cubase you can take your incoming MIDI from your controller that uses MPE or Polyphonic after touch and tell Cubase what parameter(s) inside of HALion7 you want to control with whatever polyphonic expression you send Cubase

All of that data then gets stored at the individual note level in the Cubase sequencer. So you just click on a note and see all of the MPE associated with that note. Then when you go to quantize, move, copy, duplicate, or delete MIDI notes, all of their associated controller information follows. This allows for an intuitive and accurate editing of note-related data. You don't even need an MPE or Polyphonic Aftertouch controller to use this you can just click on individual notes on the timeline or piano roll and make make adjustments

On the other side, if that's the case like that, you can not say, that Halion hasn't the full features with other DAWs. It's then rather that other DAWs don't support the way Halion handles polyphonic expression.

You seem to be putting words into my mouth, maybe that is not your intent or I wasn't clear in what I said, so let me rephrase

The full feature set of HALion7 is open and available to anyone and everyone who buys it. This includes both Polyphonic Aftertouch and MPE

It accomplishes this by using the Polyphonic Note Expressions standards built into the VST3 specifications.

Any DAW or VST3 host that fully and properly supports the VST3 specifications will be able to utilize that functionality

If you are using a DAW or other VST3 host that doesn't support those features that is your choice

Currently Cubase and other Steinberg products are the only DAWs that seem to fully support that. Therefore if you desire to use that functionality you need to use those products

Since Poly AT, and MPE are important to me (not just with HALion7) I use Cubase as my DAW and/or sequencer of choice because it's approach to using MPE and Poly AT via DAW Automation and Polyphonic Note Expressions is vastly superior, more flexible, and easier to use than any other option I have tried or own, and this the case with HALion7, and any other plugin or hardware synth that uses it

With Cubase I can make a track and record all kinds of MPE or Polyphonic Aftertouch data. I can edit, copy, paste, transpose, move, loop, quantize or do anything else I wish with that data even with individual notes. When doing so all of the MPE/Poly AT data moves with that individual note

If I change presets, plugins, or even switch to my hardware synths that support MPE or Polyphonic AT like my Montage M, it's dead simple. I can't imagine anyone who cares about MPE, or Polyphonic Aftertouch, in a synth forward production environment, not wanting to work with Note Expressions and/or using Cubase. If on the other hand Synths and MIDI are a small part of your DAW usage and you don't care about either Poly AT or MPE than sure there are a ton of other options. However if that's the case you are probably not caring that HALion7 doesn't implement Poly AT, or MPE outside of the VST3 standards anyway



Like everything else in life your MMV

OK this test was before Steinberg's attempt to forbid VST2 so maybe in the meanwhile it has changed a little bit. But I think rather not.

Also for the record Steinberg isn't forbidding anything. VST3 was released to the public on January 17, 2008. That was 17 years ago. What other 17 year old software standard do you think should still be fully supported from the days of Windows Vista, and OS X Leopard? You still rocking your Mac Power PC with Leopard? How about rocking Windows Vista on an Intel Core 2 Duo? You still using Zip Disks connected via SCSI?

I know I am not, so why would I want to use a plugin format that came out in 1999 and that was obsoleted in 2008?

All Steinberg did was tell developers in 2024 to stop using a SDK from an obsolete product that was replaced way back in 2008. Most people with common sense would not take issue with that.

Also for the record even Cubase 14 the most recent version of Cubase still supports VST2 plugins for end users and there are multiple VST3 wrappers that enable the use of VST2 plugins in VST3 environments

[SamDi]

You seem to be putting words into my mouth, maybe that is not your intent or I wasn't clear in what I said, so let me rephrase

The full feature set of HALion7 is open and available to anyone and everyone who buys it. This includes both Polyphonic Aftertouch and MPE

It accomplishes this by using the Polyphonic Note Expressions standards built into the VST3 specifications.

Any DAW or VST3 host that fully and properly supports the VST3 specifications will be able to utilize that functionality

If you are using a DAW or other VST3 host that doesn't support those features that is your choice

Currently Cubase and other Steinberg products are the only DAWs that seem to fully support that. Therefore if you desire to use that functionality you need to use those products

Since Poly AT, and MPE are important to me (not just with HALion7) I use Cubase as my DAW and/or sequencer of choice because it's approach to using MPE and Poly AT via DAW Automation and Polyphonic Note Expressions is vastly superior, more flexible, and easier to use than any other option I have tried or own, and this the case with HALion7, and any other plugin or hardware synth that uses it

With Cubase I can make a track and record all kinds of MPE or Polyphonic Aftertouch data. I can edit, copy, paste, transpose, move, loop, quantize or do anything else I wish with that data even with individual notes. When doing so all of the MPE/Poly AT data moves with that individual note

If I change presets, plugins, or even switch to my hardware synths that support MPE or Polyphonic AT like my Montage M, it's dead simple. I can't imagine anyone who cares about MPE, or Polyphonic Aftertouch, in a synth forward production environment, not wanting to work with Note Expressions and/or using Cubase. If on the other hand Synths and MIDI are a small part of your DAW usage and you don't care about either Poly AT or MPE than sure there are a ton of other options. However if that's the case you are probably not caring that HALion7 doesn't implement Poly AT, or MPE outside of the VST3 standards anyway
Like everything else in life your MMV

Oh this is a misunderstanding. I didn’t want to put words in your mouth. I refered to Zerocrossings post, where was stated that HALion does not support other DAWs fully. And then I used your post to show that the other perspective is, that it‘s not HALion which does not support other DAWs fully, but it are the DAWs which do not fully support, how HALion works for polyphonic expression. I think this is what you said, right?

Also for the record Steinberg isn't forbidding anything. VST3 was released to the public on January 17, 2008. That was 17 years ago. What other 17 year old software standard do you think should still be fully supported from the days of Windows Vista, and OS X Leopard? You still rocking your Mac Power PC with Leopard? How about rocking Windows Vista on an Intel Core 2 Duo? You still using Zip Disks connected via SCSI?

I know I am not, so why would I want to use a plugin format that came out in 1999 and that was obsoleted in 2008?

All Steinberg did was tell developers in 2024 to stop using a SDK from an obsolete product that was replaced way back in 2008. Most people with common sense would not take issue with that.

Also for the record even Cubase 14 the most recent version of Cubase still supports VST2 plugins for end users and there are multiple VST3 wrappers that enable the use of VST2 plugins in VST3 environments

I am not one if these VST2 forever defenders. But that Steinberg withdraws VST2 licences in the contracts for new VST3 licences is effectively forbidding. Not?

I did state this without any judgement.