Massive X 1.6.1 update (September 2025)!

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While trying to look up what Daliot‘s up to these days, I stumbled across this interesting review of a book I probably should get, Presets – Digital Shortcuts to Sound by Stefan Goldmann (The Bookworm, 2014).

https://www.frieze.com/article/maximal-hochgepumpt
In this light, the trademark Massive sound, pumped up to the max, leaving no room to breathe, is cut-throat capitalist competition turned into music. And fittingly, Daliot himself describes the sound of his brainchild as ‘bass in war mode’. He doesn’t seem especially proud of this.

Interestingly, many of those interviewed for Presets emphasize the importance of ‘limiting the options’. They include Robert Henke, who not only produces techno as Monolake, but also helped to develop the production and performance software Live.
All of this, and ED’s comments, probably goes a long way to explain the thinking behind MX and its „limitations“.

Most of them are obviously conscious design decisions: why develop another super synth, an „eierlegende Wollmilchsau“, as Germans would put it, especially when there’s already Massive and Reaktor around? Why not try a different approach, guided by the idea of ‘limiting the options’, after years and years of sometimes questionable „innovation“ leading to synths with endless options and 10.000 effectively meaningless wavetables nobody‘s going to listen to anyway?

„Less is more“ is hardly a new concept, but it’s something else to walk the walk. I have to respect Daliot and NI (at the time) for trying to do exactly that, even if they released an imho clearly unfinished product.

I imagine the pressure within and outside the company must have been immense to release a „worthy“ successor to Massive — mostly meaning MOAR of the same, judging by the initial reception after MX’s delayed, yet rushed release and the discussions in this very thread 6 years later. It must have been crushing for everyone involved that MX seems to have been a commercial failure, as far as I can tell.

That said, NI hasn’t helped themselves by ignoring imho reasonable user requests for years. Personally, I couldn’t care less about the preset browser f.e., but it seems obvious to me why users as well as commercial sound designers would want at least basic functionality. After all these years, we’re still not there, even if it got a bit better lately.

It will be interesting to see which direction NI is about to take with MX2. Will they stay true to the original vision by focusing mostly on obvious (imho) quality of life improvements like a better browser, more useful modulation options and modern features like poly AT or even MPE?

Or will they throw the kitchen sink at it in the quest to catch up, and we’ll get 8 tabs of FX, 64 macros, an awkward WT editor, and a preset browser with customizable gif animations? Can’t wait to find out :hyper:

P.S.: I’d love to read a behind-the-scenes book about the period between 2012 and 2022 or so. Please, someone write it, my family is dying.

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pdxindy wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 5:44 pm
EvilDragon wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 2:13 pm Why are people fixated on limitations rather than exploring the wealth of possibilites that are already there...
I can only speak for myself, but I have lots of synths with a wealth of possibilities that don't have the ridiculous limitations of MX. Given this, there is no reason to waste my time on something only half implemented.

MX has been out for about 6 years now, and there has been no appreciable development in that time.
yet you've wasted your and our time for 6 years by endlessly preaching us how bad the synth is, which is extremely awkward. As someone else wrote: you don't like the synth? go away, why ruin it for everyone else? I can never understand people like you.

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Teksonik wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 2:01 pm
IvyBirds wrote: Wed Jun 11, 2025 10:14 pm With MX you get over 170 Wavetables
That's cute. Here's a link for 2,500 wavetables and included waveforms:

https://charlesdickens.neocities.org/

And 1,000 more:

https://oceanswift.net/product/dune-3-wavetable-pack/
IvyBirds wrote: Wed Jun 11, 2025 10:14 pmBeyond the raw oscillators you then have a deep and complex synth
It's not deep and complex when you compare it to synths like Avenger or Rapid. It's modulation may be complex but its architecture is not when compared to more powerful synths.
IvyBirds wrote: Wed Jun 11, 2025 10:14 pmif they offered Wavetable import then what? The rest of the synth engine wouldn't work with them without the meta data
As mentioned by ED "some of the shaper modes". Imported wavetables would still have a useful function even if they couldn't take advantage of those modes. Not everything needs to be modulated to death just to get a useful and pleasant sound.
IvyBirds wrote: Wed Jun 11, 2025 10:14 pmSo you would be reduced to using them in the traditional Wavetable way, and why would you want to do that?
"Reduced to using them in the "traditional Wavetable way" would still provide function beyond the limited number of wavetables included so that's why I would want them.

But it's quite apparent that user waveform/wavetable import or creation is not going to happen in Massive X and in a way that's a good thing because it will keep people who get triggered by new features from having to waste their time pushing back against them on an internet forum.

In the end I got Massive X for free and its certainly worth every penny of that price. It's not ever going to be one my most used synths but it will probably see some use despite its many limitations. So for that I am grateful to NI for their generosity.

At any rate I won't discuss it any further. I made a feature request that's obviously not going to happen so time to move on...... :arrow:
What you see as many limitations, others see as endless possibilities. There are haters, but it's also many people favorite synth, and it's limited only by your own mind, as it's one of the most advanced, flexible and inspiring synths around.

Yes, there are some omissions which are pretty awkward, basic stuff which all main synths have and it lacks, but it also offers many unique and imaginative features, and possibly the best all around sound quality (including the built-in effects, which are the best I've ever heard in any synth).

It also got its own character, nothing else like it. This is why many of us admire it, so we learn how to overcome the strange omissions and make out the most out of the great features is has.

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EvilDragon wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 1:32 pm They are working on things other than OS compatibility updates.


"Dated" GUI? This ain't Synth1, yo. THAT is a dated GUI. MX is not. Lack of mod matrix is not making it "dated", it is an explicit design decision (OG Massive also didn't have it, and it was perfectly fine - a synth doesn't NEED to have a mod matrix, there's more than one way to skin a cat).
It doesn’t need a mod matrix, but they could take a page from Synthmaster’s playbook on how to show modulation on a parameter, and a page from how other software shows and labels modulation sources. Scroll wheel support should be a mandatory feature in all software plugins. Lots of things are ambiguous as to their purpose and even if they are something that can be interacted with or are just displays.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

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I will agree with mousewheel support - but that's more UX less UI :)

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nanostream wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 7:21 pm While trying to look up what Daliot‘s up to these days, I stumbled across this interesting review of a book I probably should get, Presets – Digital Shortcuts to Sound by Stefan Goldmann (The Bookworm, 2014).

https://www.frieze.com/article/maximal-hochgepumpt
In this light, the trademark Massive sound, pumped up to the max, leaving no room to breathe, is cut-throat capitalist competition turned into music. And fittingly, Daliot himself describes the sound of his brainchild as ‘bass in war mode’. He doesn’t seem especially proud of this.

Interestingly, many of those interviewed for Presets emphasize the importance of ‘limiting the options’. They include Robert Henke, who not only produces techno as Monolake, but also helped to develop the production and performance software Live.
All of this, and ED’s comments, probably goes a long way to explain the thinking behind MX and its „limitations“.

Most of them are obviously conscious design decisions: why develop another super synth, an „eierlegende Wollmilchsau“, as Germans would put it, especially when there’s already Massive and Reaktor around? Why not try a different approach, guided by the idea of ‘limiting the options’, after years and years of sometimes questionable „innovation“ leading to synths with endless options and 10.000 effectively meaningless wavetables nobody‘s going to listen to anyway?

„Less is more“ is hardly a new concept, but it’s something else to walk the walk. I have to respect Daliot and NI (at the time) for trying to do exactly that, even if they released an imho clearly unfinished product.

I imagine the pressure within and outside the company must have been immense to release a „worthy“ successor to Massive — mostly meaning MOAR of the same, judging by the initial reception after MX’s delayed, yet rushed release and the discussions in this very thread 6 years later. It must have been crushing for everyone involved that MX seems to have been a commercial failure, as far as I can tell.

That said, NI hasn’t helped themselves by ignoring imho reasonable user requests for years. Personally, I couldn’t care less about the preset browser f.e., but it seems obvious to me why users as well as commercial sound designers would want at least basic functionality. After all these years, we’re still not there, even if it got a bit better lately.
This sums it up basically perfectly.

There is a reason for every decision made. For example: why are Performers monophonic? Because originally MX was supposed to be 4 part multitimbral and Performers were supposed to basically gate those parts. So they were made as a separate module with that express purpose. Then when it was clear there wasn't enough time to make it multitimbral, that was scrapped but Performers were left, built only for that single purpose (while also being monophonic only, unaware of the voice manager basically entirely), so making them polyphonic means mostly a total rewrite...

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EvilDragon wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 7:07 pm
pdxindy wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 5:44 pmI can only speak for myself, but I have lots of synths with a wealth of possibilities that don't have the ridiculous limitations of MX. Given this, there is no reason to waste my time on something only half implemented.
It's not half-implemented if it was intended to be like that.
Yeah, when it came out 6 years ago and lots of people were complaining about the lack of basic stuff, you said they know it is not complete, that they had to get it out, but there will be subsequent updates (I'm paraphrasing)... which of course never happened.

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EvilDragon wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 7:07 pm Not every synth needs to have everything.
But every synth benefits from having certain things. Like a way to organize presets into folders. Or automate parameters, or assign a parameter to a midi controller knob.

Anyway, you asked the question, so I answered it.

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EvilDragon wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 8:17 pm This sums it up basically perfectly.

There is a reason for every decision made. For example: why are Performers monophonic? Because originally MX was supposed to be 4 part multitimbral and Performers were supposed to basically gate those parts. So they were made as a separate module with that express purpose. Then when it was clear there wasn't enough time to make it multitimbral, that was scrapped but Performers were left, built only for that single purpose (while also being monophonic only, unaware of the voice manager basically entirely), so making them polyphonic means mostly a total rewrite...
Right, so a series of errors and half implementations is where it ended up.

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zerocrossing wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 7:59 pm
EvilDragon wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 1:32 pm They are working on things other than OS compatibility updates.


"Dated" GUI? This ain't Synth1, yo. THAT is a dated GUI. MX is not. Lack of mod matrix is not making it "dated", it is an explicit design decision (OG Massive also didn't have it, and it was perfectly fine - a synth doesn't NEED to have a mod matrix, there's more than one way to skin a cat).
It doesn’t need a mod matrix, but they could take a page from Synthmaster’s playbook on how to show modulation on a parameter, and a page from how other software shows and labels modulation sources. Scroll wheel support should be a mandatory feature in all software plugins. Lots of things are ambiguous as to their purpose and even if they are something that can be interacted with or are just displays.
Also would be great to have the routing screen visible while still being able to actually see the oscillators/filter. I believe Synthmaster allows this.

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Wait...
pdxindy wrote: Thu Jun 05, 2025 3:43 pmEvery DAW has users that are not satisfied with the direction of that DAW or are frustrated that certain features they want are "still not added". But beyond that, in online forums like this, there are plenty of posters who spend more time comparing DAW's, giving advice to companies about what they should do and complaining about what isn't there than they do making music. IMO, online forums are not an accurate representation of real life.
Substitute "DAW" with "Massive x" :hihi:
ABEFLGMOPPRRST :phones:

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MX my fav synth, only init preset is installed.
Sounds amazing, and it's hard to go wrong with it, like drift, minimoog etc.
Id be fine with only qol support.
The pros largely outweight the cons. (random loading times, no undo on performers, need more x y z)
I don't get the ui hate though, it's snappy enough, drag and drop works.
I find everything animated to be distracting.
Saturn ring drag and drop just like og massive.
The "bland" ui becomes colorful and keeps clear once you add mods.
Right click to do fine tunings, octave jump, 1/3, 1/5 ratios etc
Comb filter is really really good.
Read the manual, a lost art.

If I need more than 16 macros, I have racks and molekular.
I don't like the direction ni is taking with their play series, but I'm glad if massive x gets some love.
So thanks to anyone working on it.

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Daru925 wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 11:52 pm
Read the manual, a lost art.
:clap:
No auto tune...

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RTFM is essential with MX. Beyond just explaining the basics, it contains a few little hints to make sense of some of the more arcane features like the modifiers and stuff.

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Daru925 wrote: Thu Jun 12, 2025 11:52 pm MX my fav synth, only init preset is installed.
Sounds amazing, and it's hard to go wrong with it, like drift, minimoog etc.
Id be fine with only qol support.
The pros largely outweight the cons.
I don't get the ui hate though, it's snappy enough, drag and drop works.
Saturn ring drag and drop just like og massive.
The "bland" ui becomes colorful and keeps clear once you add mods.
Right click to do fine tunings, octave jump, 1/3, 1/5 ratios etc
Read the manual, a lost art.

If I need more than 16 macros,
So thanks to anyone working on it.
This summary is very much like view. Pros, in sound, out weight any cons.

btw what did you mean simple like drift? (I think it's not totally simple, but the basic really are fairly straightforward)

Reading the manual, or watching tutorials showing features is really helpful to get past the obvious basics.

There's so much to explore in this synth in the oscillators, FX, performers, filters that the range of timbers is insane.

With such a vast array of sounds, somewhat like a modular, it's not all sweet spots, but every thing seems sound tonally great even if it's a weird texture.

Personally I'd like to see more improvements, even though, happy with how it is. What I want might qualify as a Massive X 2 though. Got to say NI probably dropped the ball by not making up update to the original one, I hope that doesn't happen with this one.

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