Real amps vs modelling and plugin amps

[Naillerz78]

:

Well, the only amp I ever came across that had a single knob on it was the Brian May Edition Vox AC30. It's modeled in Amplitube's Brian May pack, but how well? Not sure. I get it to sound fantastic, but I found the presets to be terrible. That could very well be because I'm feeding it a guitar that's wildly unlike Brian's guitar. When I forget the presets and just use it on its own, it sounds very good to me... but then I'm putting some sort of EQ either before or after to adjust things. I mean... I guess I just don't want to always sound like one specific tone, and the beauty of amp controls is that it gives you that flexibility.

That sort of describes why I moved to amp modelers in the first place. I used to have multi-channel amps, but basically get a single preferred setting per channel and leave it there. I'd even use stickers to show me what my settings were so when they got moved in transit I'd be able to quickly get back to my "preset." But the 2 or 3 channels were never enough for the range of sounds I wanted in a show, so I was always using pedals with EQs, gain and boost to get various alternatives.

This always meant "tap dancing," which when you're trying to sing and play can be a royal PITA. Amp modelers allowed me to go from a cranked Bassman with a gain boost in front of it to the lead channel of a Mesa Rectifier with a flanger after it in a single step. That's the kind of thing I always do in a live show.

But I'm a tweaker, and I always have been. Maybe it was because I started out with such crap gear that I was always trying to get something from garbage. Like making sausage because you don't have good cuts of meat. I also was inspired to play music from The Beatles, and not from She Loves You, but from I Am The Walrus. My absolute favorite period was Revolver through the White Album. I'm more into conventional guitar sounds, these days, but that's only because I'm deeper into synthesis, which is really the penultimate for tweaking.

Yeah I remember that BM AC30.
These are Bogren Plug ins I mentioned;
There are pretty new on the scene afaik.

https://bogrendigital.com/pages/ampknob-bdm-bundle

If they do a Fender and a Vox I’d be tempted to try. Then add fx to taste.

It boggles my mind that people always say “DONT USE THE PRESETS!!” with sims/modellers. To me , surely these are created by the “audio engineers” at XYZ company to showcase the best qualities of the product to the gear buying customer. I mean I do get it a little bit, some presets are overcooked w fx and not my taste for sure.

But .. it still boggles. “IGNORE THE PRESETS THEY ALL SOUND LIKE SHIT -U MUST DEEP DIVE AND TWEAK TO FIND THE SOUNDS” it’s kinda irrational and illogical to me.

If That’s the case - how anyone objectively say it sounds good. If the presets used to showcase the sounds , sound like shit.

Re the Beatles - absolutely . Golden sounds.

[zerocrossing]

:

Well, the only amp I ever came across that had a single knob on it was the Brian May Edition Vox AC30. It's modeled in Amplitube's Brian May pack, but how well? Not sure. I get it to sound fantastic, but I found the presets to be terrible. That could very well be because I'm feeding it a guitar that's wildly unlike Brian's guitar. When I forget the presets and just use it on its own, it sounds very good to me... but then I'm putting some sort of EQ either before or after to adjust things. I mean... I guess I just don't want to always sound like one specific tone, and the beauty of amp controls is that it gives you that flexibility.

That sort of describes why I moved to amp modelers in the first place. I used to have multi-channel amps, but basically get a single preferred setting per channel and leave it there. I'd even use stickers to show me what my settings were so when they got moved in transit I'd be able to quickly get back to my "preset." But the 2 or 3 channels were never enough for the range of sounds I wanted in a show, so I was always using pedals with EQs, gain and boost to get various alternatives.

This always meant "tap dancing," which when you're trying to sing and play can be a royal PITA. Amp modelers allowed me to go from a cranked Bassman with a gain boost in front of it to the lead channel of a Mesa Rectifier with a flanger after it in a single step. That's the kind of thing I always do in a live show.

But I'm a tweaker, and I always have been. Maybe it was because I started out with such crap gear that I was always trying to get something from garbage. Like making sausage because you don't have good cuts of meat. I also was inspired to play music from The Beatles, and not from She Loves You, but from I Am The Walrus. My absolute favorite period was Revolver through the White Album. I'm more into conventional guitar sounds, these days, but that's only because I'm deeper into synthesis, which is really the penultimate for tweaking.

Yeah I remember that BM AC30.
These are Bogren Plug ins I mentioned;
There are pretty new on the scene afaik.

https://bogrendigital.com/pages/ampknob-bdm-bundle

If they do a Fender and a Vox I’d be tempted to try. Then add fx to taste.

It boggles my mind that people always say “DONT USE THE PRESETS!!” with sims/modellers. To me , surely these are created by the “audio engineers” at XYZ company to showcase the best qualities of the product to the gear buying customer. I mean I do get it a little bit, some presets are overcooked w fx and not my taste for sure.

But .. it still boggles. “IGNORE THE PRESETS THEY ALL SOUND LIKE SHIT -U MUST DEEP DIVE AND TWEAK TO FIND THE SOUNDS” it’s kinda irrational and illogical to me.

If That’s the case - how anyone objectively say it sounds good. If the presets used to showcase the sounds , sound like shit.

Re the Beatles - absolutely . Golden sounds.

Look at it this way. When you're dealing with something like a synthesizer, presets can be useful because every aspect of the sound is accounted for. A Moog Voyager is going to sound more or less the same in every studio, if the monitors are the same. With an amp, there's like a billion different models of guitar that could get plugged into it, and each one of those has tone controls, pick up selectors, different string gauges, etc. I generally use my Steinberger for most of my music, but if I want a more "classic" sound, it's totally wrong, and the amp model that wasn't getting me there is all of the sudden perfect, once I change to my G&L Skyhawk (basically a Stratocaster).

Also, with the Brian May sounds in Amplitube, I think what they were going for was the sound of the guitar in the mix of a specific song, and not what Brian was probably hearing coming from his AC30. If you look at the presets, they've all got a lot of EQ going on that just don't work for me, but again, maybe with a different guitar they're better. Hard to say.

[Naillerz78]

Look at it this way. When you're dealing with something like a synthesizer, presets can be useful because every aspect of the sound is accounted for. A Moog Voyager is going to sound more or less the same in every studio, if the monitors are the same. With an amp, there's like a billion different models of guitar that could get plugged into it, and each one of those has tone controls, pick up selectors, different string gauges, etc. I generally use my Steinberger for most of my music, but if I want a more "classic" sound, it's totally wrong, and the amp model that wasn't getting me there is all of the sudden perfect, once I change to my G&L Skyhawk (basically a Stratocaster).

Also, with the Brian May sounds in Amplitube, I think what they were going for was the sound of the guitar in the mix of a specific song, and not what Brian was probably hearing coming from his AC30. If you look at the presets, they've all got a lot of EQ going on that just don't work for me, but again, maybe with a different guitar they're better. Hard to say.

I get this , totally. What I originally liked about Guitar Rig was it had presets specifically labelled ‘HB’ and curated for humbuckers. I absolutely do not understand why others didn’t follow this , as of course a humbucker is gonna sound much different to a strat single coil. The presets names in the older GR told me pretty much exactly which guitar they were designed for. Gibson w HBs, Strats, Teles etc.

I suspect the reason it’s not done this way is to give the devs an “out” when there’s complaints it don’t sound right. - ‘oh well there’s a lot of variables so it’s not technically the software that sounds bad- high chance it’s you buddy.’

I kinda feel that’s why companies pack SO much into the software. Eg Overloud THU… that has about 5,000 presets bells and whistles and tbh most sound rough as guts to my ears. They added in more and more to that one. People saying “oh it’s has great sounds , just gotta find them and tweak them ‘ etc. more like ‘OverLoad’ to me. To distract from the basis that it just don’t sound very good tbh. They even added a virtual Variac (lol) . It has a million switches and options that sim. But it don’t matter , tweak till the cows come home, waste of time, the sound is just BAD. (IMHO)

[Naillerz78]

And there is this ongoing pro sim argument that goes like this ;
- sims = real tube amps , and not only that (!) sims offer a whole new world / toolbox of tones .they are their OWN thing now , they have the possibility of amazing BRAND NEW digital sounds to be created that we ain’t even imagined yet.

To which I’d say - oh yeah? Like what?
What new classic guitar sounds have been created with Sims. They are being used by top bands (and no doubt virtuoso guitarists in those bands) currently if I believe what I read .

So where’s the new sounds?

Sims are still a booming industry for Metal guitar music. That seems to have the most new release stuff. Has there been a new ‘classic metal amp’ created in sims for that genre yet? Afaik.. No.

Neural DSP is still modelling real world tube Metal amplifiers afaik (even with all that new toolbox creative tonal firepower at their fingertips ) .
So I don’t see any evidence of this assertion.

And as an aside - there’s still YT tutorials on how to get rid of high end digital nastiness from sims. And the guy is using Neural DSP as the plug in for his tips n tricks.

[zerocrossing]

Look at it this way. When you're dealing with something like a synthesizer, presets can be useful because every aspect of the sound is accounted for. A Moog Voyager is going to sound more or less the same in every studio, if the monitors are the same. With an amp, there's like a billion different models of guitar that could get plugged into it, and each one of those has tone controls, pick up selectors, different string gauges, etc. I generally use my Steinberger for most of my music, but if I want a more "classic" sound, it's totally wrong, and the amp model that wasn't getting me there is all of the sudden perfect, once I change to my G&L Skyhawk (basically a Stratocaster).

Also, with the Brian May sounds in Amplitube, I think what they were going for was the sound of the guitar in the mix of a specific song, and not what Brian was probably hearing coming from his AC30. If you look at the presets, they've all got a lot of EQ going on that just don't work for me, but again, maybe with a different guitar they're better. Hard to say.

I get this , totally. What I originally liked about Guitar Rig was it had presets specifically labelled ‘HB’ and curated for humbuckers. I absolutely do not understand why others didn’t follow this , as of course a humbucker is gonna sound much different to a strat single coil. The presets names in the older GR told me pretty much exactly which guitar they were designed for. Gibson w HBs, Strats, Teles etc.

I suspect the reason it’s not done this way is to give the devs an “out” when there’s complaints it don’t sound right. - ‘oh well there’s a lot of variables so it’s not technically the software that sounds bad- high chance it’s you buddy.’

I kinda feel that’s why companies pack SO much into the software. Eg Overloud THU… that has about 5,000 presets bells and whistles and tbh most sound rough as guts to my ears. They added in more and more to that one. People saying “oh it’s has great sounds , just gotta find them and tweak them ‘ etc. more like ‘OverLoad’ to me. To distract from the basis that it just don’t sound very good tbh. They even added a virtual Variac (lol) . It has a million switches and options that sim. But it don’t matter , tweak till the cows come home, waste of time, the sound is just BAD. (IMHO)

That's why I always start out with an "initialized" or "default" preset. I usually make a few of my own, for my favorite amps and variants for my guitars. Then, the process is identical to hardware amps and effects, but without the lifting.

It also helps sort the wheat from the chaff, and I believe there is a bit of chaff for sale out there. I'm in full agreement with you on Overloud. I've never felt the sound was good, regardless as to the settings or bells and whistles. I read someone talking about their favorite amp sim was MGuitarArchitect, which I found was one of the worst sounding modelers ever. Same with the BlueCat emulation. I thought it sounded like garbage at all settings.

I've also rejected amp sim software that sounded great, but didn't have the work flow or business style that suited me. The NeuralDSP stuff sounds great to me, but I don't like how limited it is, or how much you'd have to spend to get the full set of everything. I also like running multi-amp rigs with stereo panning. For someone with more simple needs, I'd highly recommend them.

I had a Kemper for years, and despite some of the captures not being great, I found plenty that were great, but one path was a bummer, and I missed the type of tweaking you can do with a model. The Kemper just doesn't model how the tone-stack interacts with the rest of the amp.

AxeFX was great, but I felt like the included IRs weren't. I used my own, but for that kind of money, you'd think the included ones would be excellent. I mean, they didn't sound bad, but they didn't really capture the character well. Also, the fan noise was annoying. If I were gigging again, I'd consider one of the new floor models, but the Line6 HX Stomp XL I have is also good and inexpensive.

Let me know what you think of the one-knob models. The demos sounded good. I just personally don't feel like that type of constraint is good for me.

[Naillerz78]

This is what I get with Amp5 also.
I don’t believe any amount of gain staging will help tbh.
That sound is so .. ‘brittle’ and ‘square/sharp’ to my ears. Ouch.


Btw what’s the latest and greatest IR loader(s)
Are fluid IRs any better.. or just another gimmick.
I couldn’t tell much of a difference in a video I watched about them. (Overloud’s Fluid IRs)

[Uncle E]

FWIW, he's got the SM57 pointed straight at the center of the cone, which is the brightest/harshest way to mic a cab.

Personally, I use AmpliTube to host Tonex captures (it can chain 3 of them), for the room sound, and for effects. I never use its amps or distortions. When I use Tonex live, it's the pedal (with cabinets bypassed) running through a 100W tube power amp, into a 15" speaker.

[zerocrossing]

FWIW, he's got the SM57 pointed straight at the center of the cone, which is the brightest/harshest way to mic a cab.

Amplitube is really sensitive to mic placement. Some cabs need that, some sound too bright. I almost always do that though, and mix it with a fuller sounding mic to get a balance.

Personally, I use AmpliTube to host Tonex captures (it can chain 3 of them), for the room sound, and for effects. I never use its amps or distortions. When I use Tonex live, it's the pedal (with cabinets bypassed) running through a 100W tube power amp, into a 15" speaker.

I find that Amplitube models are a bit uneven. Some are fantastic. Some have this sort of static sounding grit to them when doing mid-gain crunch tones. Some take boosts really well, some don't. For instance, the Satch Marshall doing crunch tones is kind of terrible, but Tonex captures of that same amp are great. The clean and high gain sounds from that amp are good. Other stuff is as good as the Tonex captures. There's enough that's good to just ignore the bad.

[Naillerz78]

Went back to Scuffham SGear.
Especially this model ;

https://www.scuffhamamps.com/product/am ... /custom-57

Very nice, no tweaking required just plug and play. Happy days

[tapper mike]

And there is this ongoing pro sim argument that goes like this ;
- sims = real tube amps , and not only that (!) sims offer a whole new world / toolbox of tones .they are their OWN thing now , they have the possibility of amazing BRAND NEW digital sounds to be created that we ain’t even imagined yet.

To which I’d say - oh yeah? Like what?
What new classic guitar sounds have been created with Sims. They are being used by top bands (and no doubt virtuoso guitarists in those bands) currently if I believe what I read .

So where’s the new sounds?

I love the above statement.

Where are the new classic sounds. What strikes me more is Where are these new bands?

[Uncle E]

Check out Dimarzio endorsees. They’re excellent at picking out up and coming players. Ernie Ball, too. From what I’ve seen, these younger players seem to go from super shimmery, ethereal cleans to extreme heaviness that makes Metallica sound tame.

[deepsoundlab]

As a guitarist and plugin developer, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this exact topic. I hope some of what I’ve learned can help shed a little light on it for you:

---

 Guitar cabs, studio monitors, and headphones are not the same thing

This is probably the biggest difference. Most of the time when we play through a real amp, what we’re hearing is the cab. But with digital modelers, we’re usually listening through studio monitors or headphones. And just like how headphones sound different from monitors, a cab gives you a very different experience too.

That’s also why many people feel digital hardware modelers sound better when plugged into a power amp—because they’re then hearing it through a real cab. Most guitarists are simply more used to the sound coming from a cab.

---

 Volume has a big impact on perception

Try to compare tones at the volume you're actually used to playing at. I’ve seen a lot of folks keep the volume low when using digital gear, but crank it when playing through a real amp. If you're used to playing quietly, suddenly turning things up can make the tone feel fuller, wider, and sometimes harder to control.

---

 Digital modeling targets the entire signal chain—not just the amp

A lot of the time, the actual target of modeling is the full signal path. Say you’re modeling an amp—there’s usually also a reamp box, a load box, an interface in the chain, because that’s how you get a clean A/B test against the real hardware.

These devices all shape the final sound. If the model includes cab sim, then mic, mic preamp, and room characteristics may also be baked in—and those can have an even bigger impact. So if you want to compare a real amp to a digital model fairly, you need to recreate the full signal chain, not just match the amp settings.

---

 Gain staging matters—a lot

This is a critical piece, especially in digital modeling. A lot of users (and even some developers) overlook it, which can lead to tones or playing feel that feel off.

Put simply: if your gain staging isn’t set up right, it’s like turning down the volume knob on your guitar, or like running into a hidden booster—it’s going to throw things off. Many people who say modeling doesn’t feel like the real thing are actually just running at the wrong input level.

We talked about this more in the Patreon post—feel free to check that out if you’re curious.

---

 Most models don’t actually sound that close to the real thing

It’s common to hear that modern modelers are super accurate—but in reality, most of them still sound pretty different from the hardware they’re based on. We've A/B tested a lot of modelers from different brands while developing our own plugins, and even when the full signal chain is matched scientifically, the differences are usually pretty obvious.

Some of those differences might seem subtle when listening casually, but once you start stacking multiple modeled pedals and amps into a full chain, those differences can add up and impact the whole vibe. Plus, it's often more noticeable when you're actually playing—not just listening. That’s what people mean when they say “it doesn’t feel right.”

---

 There’s a lot more to it

The gap between real gear and modeled plugins is a deep rabbit hole—there are tons of small factors that influence the feel and tone, and it’s impossible to cover everything here. But these are what I think are the most important ones.

Anyway, I’m off to play some guitar after a long day in the studio. Hope this was helpful, and feel free to drop more questions—always happy to chat.

[Naillerz78]

And there is this ongoing pro sim argument that goes like this ;
- sims = real tube amps , and not only that (!) sims offer a whole new world / toolbox of tones .they are their OWN thing now , they have the possibility of amazing BRAND NEW digital sounds to be created that we ain’t even imagined yet.

To which I’d say - oh yeah? Like what?
What new classic guitar sounds have been created with Sims. They are being used by top bands (and no doubt virtuoso guitarists in those bands) currently if I believe what I read .

So where’s the new sounds?

I love the above statement.

Where are the new classic sounds. What strikes me more is Where are these new bands?

Indeed. These YT virtuosos seem to be where it’s at atm. I’m not sure I’d classify that stuff as “music “ tho. Blazing technique and chops but.. hard to listen to tbh.(for me).

[zerocrossing]

And there is this ongoing pro sim argument that goes like this ;
- sims = real tube amps , and not only that (!) sims offer a whole new world / toolbox of tones .they are their OWN thing now , they have the possibility of amazing BRAND NEW digital sounds to be created that we ain’t even imagined yet.

There are plenty of new tones that aren't modeled after anything in the real world, but you start butting up against the reality that so much has been tried before there ever was an amp modeler, that we sort of know what sounds good. Line6 and Neural DSP both have their own models, but to be honest, it's going to be variations on a theme from here on out.

You say you don't want a lot to tweak, but frankly, that's where the new sounds are going to come from. What's a Triple Rectifier going to sound like with though the cab of a Fender '57 Champ? On a second path, run a Roland Jazz Chorus with a Chandler Tube Drive in front of it... or behind it. Try stuff. Guitar Rig is perfect for such things. I love doing things like splitting the signal with a crossover and sending different bands to different amps.

To which I’d say - oh yeah? Like what?
What new classic guitar sounds have been created with Sims. They are being used by top bands (and no doubt virtuoso guitarists in those bands) currently if I believe what I read .

So where’s the new sounds?

What about Polyphia? Didn't Neural DSP make a digital amp for Tim Henson?

https://neuraldsp.com/plugins/archetype-tim-henson

[Uncle E]

What about Polyphia? Didn't Neural DSP make a digital amp for Tim Henson?

Also Plini, Gojira, Tosin Abasi, and Rabea.