Real amps vs modelling and plugin amps

[BertKoor]

Afaik a digital amp turns a rounded waveform into a very close approximation of a rounded waveform but one that still has teeny tiny ‘steps’ to it. It is highly detailed but still squared if you zoomed in on it with a microscope .. kinda.

This shows you know nothing about D/A converters. There are no steps in the analog output, these are smoothed out.

[YnJ]

This one is all digital, it’s the Korg A3:

Interesting thing, I didn't know about this unit. It seems it's an effects unit though, do you need to run it in front of an amp/preamp, or can you use it as a preamp?

[Uncle E]

It’s also a preamp. Has distortion and primitive amp/speaker emulation.

[YnJ]

There it is. It sounds Fuller. Has more body and depth to it

Well, yes, tube amps are generally more full bodied than solid state amps. I'm guessing from your previous posts that you are generally in the cleaner area of an amp when you're playing. I tend to stay in the mid to high gain area most of the time, and while a complete tube amp, or any type of preamp going through a tube power amp, sounds fuller, there are some sounds a tube amp can't do as well, which you can get with a solid state amp and are still attractive to me at least. Somehow solid state amps feels more responsive when you play fast as well, the tones feels more transient, or transient more quickly (not sure how to use that expression), making it easier to play fast riffs and licks

[YnJ]

It’s also a preamp. Has distortion and primitive amp/speaker emulation.

I might keep an eye out for it then. I tend to get at least rack mounted preamps quite cheap, as it seems that over here I make out most of the buyers market for second hand units

[Naillerz78]

Afaik a digital amp turns a rounded waveform into a very close approximation of a rounded waveform but one that still has teeny tiny ‘steps’ to it. It is highly detailed but still squared if you zoomed in on it with a microscope .. kinda.

This shows you know nothing about D/A converters. There are no steps in the analog output, these are smoothed out.

I replied to a statement “ I don’t know how a digital amp works”
This is what I meant.

https://www.circuitcrush.com/analog-dig ... -tutorial/

What’s the most important bit to knowing how a digital amp works mate..? That it goes back to an analog wave at the output is it? Ok then.

Maybe stop nitpicking my posts .
And tell me your theory of how amp sims are getting past their limitations and barriers at reproducing tube amp sounds in technical terms.
Or post evidence of how they definitely and measurably now sound “exactly the same”.
Cheers

“They are indistinguishable in a mix and that’s what matters “ so it’s said. Talk about muddying the waters . Yeah add a bunch of other sounds in and see if you can tell the difference. That doesn’t prove they are “there”.

Even up to recently the YT influencer /“experts” are still tryna figure out how the f**king software should be setup properly at the input. People are using a f**king user created spreadsheet and emailing devs asking for answers. Cos the sim Vs the real amp are not sounding “ the same”. That video is a year old what a joke of a situation! See Rhett Shulls video below.

Sorry buddy .. that’s a pretty big fail. Clearly.
There’s a “fix” spreadsheet doing the rounds. lol.


.

[stoopicus]

My criteria for amp sims is the same as my criteria for real amps - it's very very simple:

Do they sound good?

That's it.

I don't give a crap if a SVT bass amp sim sounds exactly like a real Ampeg SVT, any more than I care that a SVT-CL or SVT-VR sound slightly different than a vintage SVT. Fidelity to the simulated amps is overrated.

There's 20 year old amp sims that still sound great today. Line 6 has *always* killed it here. And I am still using Kuassa's amp sims for both guitar and bass simply because I think they sound awesome, not because I think Amplifikation Clarent sounds exactly like any specific Orange.

Amp sims, either soloed or in the mix, have sounded fantastic for a long, long time. Your listeners aren't going to be breaking out oscilloscopes or be running a FFT to check your even vs odd harmonics.

[Naillerz78]

There it is. It sounds Fuller. Has more body and depth to it

Well, yes, tube amps are generally more full bodied than solid state amps. I'm guessing from your previous posts that you are generally in the cleaner area of an amp when you're playing. I tend to stay in the mid to high gain area most of the time, and while a complete tube amp, or any type of preamp going through a tube power amp, sounds fuller, there are some sounds a tube amp can't do as well, which you can get with a solid state amp and are still attractive to me at least. Somehow solid state amps feels more responsive when you play fast as well, the tones feels more transient, or transient more quickly (not sure how to use that expression), making it easier to play fast riffs and licks

Yeah clean to slightly dirty to classic rock level gain for me. Yeah sure I can believe that. Dimebag Darrell played solid state amps. and others.
Transistor amps dirty are a great punk and garage rock sound. Not saying they are “bad”. But there’s an audible measurable difference and those are the reasons why which I outlined.
S/S amps are miles better than most modelling combos which up until recently were awful cheap trash fit for nothing tbh. A real ripoff those.

[Naillerz78]

Ok let me come at this from another angle.
Lets omit plug ins and amp sims treated and mixed well in a recording for a minute.

Positive Grid had an amp head product out on the market about 3-4 years ago. Apparently amp sims were “there” back then according to many.

It was an modelling amp head + power amp in a small super light box that could power a half stack guitar speaker cab. That was the idea afaik.
Now in theory - that head ought to have been a best seller. Millions of metal heads and the rest ought to have bought it.
But .. it was a flop.
No one owns one or if they do they are selling them 2nd hand.
Cos it didn’t sound “the same”.

Fender have the Tonemaster amp line. Apparently it’s also “there same” as the fender tube combos it based on. No one is buying those either.

Now Line 6, Neural Quad Cortex et Al could easily make a similar product to Bias Fxs Amp Head.
But they won’t do that. Oh no way.
Because they know full well there is a very audible difference in the room. And that would be too obvious. It’s better for sales revenue to keep everyone buying floor units and separate products to go with it . Cos the customers can chase their tails until the cows come home spending money cycling through units, IRs, power amps and FRFR speakers.. looking for that extra % of ‘realism’.
So they can still keep making all those ranges of different products and keep the business and profits going. Telling the customers it’s all the “best yet - you really can’t tell the difference anymore”.

Does anyone get my point there above?

There will be many many more “game changers “ coming imo in the amp sim world. Cos that keeps bringing in the sweet revenue lads.
There’s been a LOT of “game changers “ so far.
But none of them have actually changed the game. lol. Cos da game is rigged.

[stoopicus]

Now Line 6, Neural Quad Cortex et Al could easily make a similar product to Bias Fxs Amp Head.
But they won’t do that. Oh no way.

Line 6 has made (and still makes) many model-loading amps.

Darkglass (NeuralDSP's sister company, both founded by the same guy) makes many amp heads, including ones running models (usually cab sims), including their latest which models the entire signal chain.

and then there's the Kemper.

[Scotty]

For my own studio use I go with amp sims. I do have a dedicated amp room. When using actual amps I am manually moving microphones around in the amp room at volume and it is damn hard to pin point the sweet spots around the cab. There is so much headphone bleed even with closed backed headphones. I find dialling in cabinet tone and microphone placement virtually with amp sims in my control room to be so much more effective. For my personal purposes that outweighs any apparent loss of picking dynamics or differences in transient response that I might lose by using actual hardware amps and cabinets. Also selecting a compatible tone that works with the song is relatively quick and combinations that may work better than others can be attempted quickly. Doing that in hardware requires a lot of studio time and equipment.

When I was recording more bands I would run my Radial splitters into the amp room and capture the physical amps that the talent preferred (and usually brought with them) but when mixing the song, more times than not I would be using amp sims in the actual mix. No one ever complained and I would do AB comparisons with the recorded amp tone and the virtual tone for my fussier clients. I can only think of one or two clients who preferred the live amp tone over what I mixed virtually and I recall that we wound up blending them to reach a tone that they were happy with.

I don’t record heavy metal material and don’t have a lot of experience with that genre. Perhaps I would have reached a different conclusion and required a different process in those situations.

[Naillerz78]

Now Line 6, Neural Quad Cortex et Al could easily make a similar product to Bias Fxs Amp Head.
But they won’t do that. Oh no way.

Line 6 has made (and still makes) many model-loading amps.

Darkglass (NeuralDSP's sister company, both founded by the same guy) makes many amp heads, including ones running models (usually cab sims), including their latest which models the entire signal chain.

and then there's the Kemper.

Oh yes. They are on the market the L6 Spider V series combos. Up to 240W with built in wireless and 14 amp models plus FX. Ought to be a godsend for guitarists . But no one is buying them or using them Stoopicus, because next to the real deal they don’t cut it. It’s obvious the sound and feel is still off. Most are the cheapest looking build quality combos also. They look and sound like toys amps.

Darkglass I have never even come across advertising for or seen anywhere. It must be a Bass amp(?)

The Kemper is the only one regarded highly stil. It’s probably the only ‘digital classic’in terms of popularity and sales. That’s different tech tho. And some owners say they don’t quite cut it either. But it is the best seller and mainstay of the lot.

The Boss Katana was the latest and greatest of the recent breed. It’s starting to fade in sales now afaics.

I’m pointing out that if modelling was “there” vs tube amps , modelling amp combos ought to be dominating the market like an iPhone, but that’s not the case and the reason is obvious why. It’s not there.

[Naillerz78]

My criteria for amp sims is the same as my criteria for real amps - it's very very simple:

Do they sound good?

That's it.

I don't give a crap if a SVT bass amp sim sounds exactly like a real Ampeg SVT, any more than I care that a SVT-CL or SVT-VR sound slightly different than a vintage SVT. Fidelity to the simulated amps is overrated.

There's 20 year old amp sims that still sound great today. Line 6 has *always* killed it here. And I am still using Kuassa's amp sims for both guitar and bass simply because I think they sound awesome, not because I think Amplifikation Clarent sounds exactly like any specific Orange.

Amp sims, either soloed or in the mix, have sounded fantastic for a long, long time. Your listeners aren't going to be breaking out oscilloscopes or be running a FFT to check your even vs odd harmonics.

Dude.
The people that are complaining aren’t the listeners they are the guitar players whom the products are sold to , under bullshit false claims and pretences. That’s the point.

I agree with some of what you’re saying but that’s not the main debate. The main debate is always Amp Sims, now =The Real Deal Amps (that they are modeled on and striving to sound just like)

Your assertion then is “the similarity doesn’t matter, they just sound GOOD to me”.

If it doesn’t matter if they sound like the real deal just cos they sound “good” then what’s the f**king point of modelling tube amps AT ALL? It’s ALL a bunch of bullshit completely is what you’re saying.
Why bother calling it amp modelling or amp simulation at all? There doesn’t need to be any connection whatsoever right?

Just create some sounds and call them Kuassa clean/dirty/crunch/hi gain. 4 “sounds”.

Why not? Cos if they don’t have the brand name Fender Marshall Vox SVT or whatever .. no one would buy the product . They are only buying the product to get the sounds of 50 real tube amps for the price of 1. That’s the sell.

So in essence I agree with you. It IS all a bunch of hyped up bullshit and fraudulent claims. And they ought to drop the association altogether .

It IS its own thing. And mostly sounds nothing like the source it’s being ‘modelled’ on anyway so.

[Naillerz78]

DP.

[Naillerz78]

DP.