Real amps vs modelling and plugin amps

[zerocrossing]

What?!

https://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/mons ... -rock/2950

I always wanted a Hughes & Kettner Cream Machine. Now I see that the Crunch Master, Blues Master, and Bass Master are really the ones to get because they have proper EL84 power tubes. Maybe the Bass Master is the best one overall because it doesn't have speaker emulation, though maybe that's defeatable on the other two.

Anyway, for the prices these things are selling for now, we can buy proper tube amps, so there's no point anymore. They were $100 when I lusted after them.

I saw people asking over $300 for the ART, which I'd safely say is worth about $15.

[zerocrossing]

I think the POD sounds pretty good . Just think how old the POD is . I had commented earlier that I like my Roland Cube 30x more than the 5watt tube amp VHTs6u. I don't think Tube Amps will ever die . There is some magic about them . I could be wrong but I just don't see them ever not being made .

Of course they'll never die. Hell, if I had a proper recording studio, and not a converted bedroomish thing in a townhouse, I'd love to own a few boutique tube amps. When we talk about these digital devices, we're talking about a solution to a problem that tube amps usually have, not something that one-ups them, or maybe even totally equals them, though that can be debatable. I've picked the sound of a modeler, over the actual tube amp, in blind tests. Not often, but several times. Here's what amp modeling is really for:

Small home recording/practice. The last time I lived in a proper house was 2004, and prior to that, 1983, in my parents' house. I did have tube amps during those times, but I also lived with other people, so the majority of the time I had to wait until I was home alone to crank it up to levels that had those amps sounding the way I wanted in recordings. They mostly only got a proper work-out during gigs. I'd have f'n killed for even a Rockman Guitar Ace when I was growing up.

Live shows demanding variety. I love variety, and I imagine it's called for in various cover band situations as well. In an 80s cover band? You're going to need to sound like the clean-chorus I'm Going To Run To You sound one minute, and the next, Come On, Hear The Noise distortion the next. Often you will need two very different tones in a single tune, with no time to step on an amp channel switcher and several effects boxes to make the transition. Amp modelers usually have a wide array of effects built in, and make that kind of transition seamless and easy. A variety of amps and cabs can take up a lot of stage space and make a bedroom studio feel very cramped.

Mad scientists who love to experiment. One of the main reasons I started using amp modelers was when I moved from traditional gigs to experimental, live looping affairs. Instantly I realized that the only good place for a looper (a Lexicon JamMan, back then) is in an effects loop, or you start building up gain from the preamp. If you're using synthesizers, you end up with a boxy guitar amp sound that often doesn't work. Using a mic'd cab sucks because you will run into feedback issues. An amp modeler eliminates all these problems, and allows for improbable combinations of gear that can yield interesting results. What does a Plexi sound like though a Fender Champ cabinet? The answer is a click away. What does a TS9 sound like after the cabinet? Try it and find out. I have double, and even triple, virtual amp-effect rigs that would be very hard to set up in most professional studios, and that would cost as much as Donald sues journalists for when they report the truth.

So, if you're someone who is happy with an amp, there will always be something for you, but sometimes amps can really suck for various reasons. I could go for Synergy setup, but then I'm dealing with re-amping all the time, because I often change the sound a lot from my original recorded sound.

[Uncle E]

I had that whole series for many years, but sold them off one by one until I now only have the Bass Master (BATT).

It’s just so useful to have a 1/2 rack full tube amp (though I use the Bass Master mostly in the role of power amp).

I ran vintage Bugle Boy 12AX7’s and Mullard EL84’s in the Blues Master and the Bass Master — those tubes would now cost quite a bit more than I paid for the units.

The Blues Master was my main amp for a long time and it was hard to part with, but I had gone back to combos by then and the price was way up. It was the only online sale I ever made where the buyer sent me a very sincere and heartfelt seeming message truly thanking me for selling it to him. I wish I still had that one to be honest, but the Bass Master was the most useful in a utilitarian way, and had the same core tone that I loved (cooking EL84).

I also still have two of the original version H&K Tubeman pedals (the ones with the selector switch for Rock, Blues, Jazz, or Funk). These things are great in their own right and are the one of the few pedals I ever owned that can convincingly do the Djent style chug thing that I whip out occasionally for a laugh. The Jazz setting can sound like the most beautiful slightly compressing Twin.

You and I have probably been on a similar path, chasing the low watt/DI recording dragon. I have a Tubeman, too. The Groove Tubes STP-G was the thing that finally made me give up on it, now I just use the Suhr Reactive Load so that the DI aspect doesn't have to be a consideration.

I'll admit that I was more willing to put in the extra effort with Tonex because of how bad every other experience has been. But now that I've figured out this capture after a capture thing, I think it's legitimately as good as miking a real amp.

[Uncle E]

Of course they'll never die. Hell, if I had a proper recording studio, and not a converted bedroomish thing in a townhouse, I'd love to own a few boutique tube amps. When we talk about these digital devices, we're talking about a solution to a problem that tube amps usually have, not something that one-ups them, or maybe even totally equals them, though that can be debatable.

I think I mentioned in this thread that I have a holy grail AC30 sitting in my garage that a rock star friend loaned me. I almost never use it because A) it needs to be insanely loud to sound good and B) it's so valuable and irreplaceable that I'm paranoid about DI'ing it.

[fedexnman]

I imagine stuff like ToneX and other stuff has really simplified a lot of touring musicians rigs . You ever go on Equipboard to look at folks rigs . Man oh man oh ... It amazes me how much musicians will have multiple amp heads and amp switcher stomps etc etc . Ex. Wes Borland ( limp biscuit) uses Roland jc120 for cleans and delays stuff then switches to the Diezels for chugga chugga stuff . Lol I love West Borland he's such a good balance of clean and heavy . Maybe NOT a guitar god by no means but his artistic costumes and his approach to his sound is pretty interesting to me .

[Uncle E]

One pro told me he stopped taking his vintage Tweed Bassman on tour after he profiled it with his Kemper. Add wear and tear (both on the amp and on the person having to lug it around) to the list of reasons to go digital.

[pekbro]

One pro told me he stopped taking his vintage Tweed Bassman on tour after he profiled it with his Kemper. Add wear and tear (both on the amp and on the person having to lug it around) to the list of reasons to go digital.

That's what roadies are for, just make sure to have them wrap the amps in velvet before putting them in their anvil cases and loading them onto the bands 757. Problem solved!

*An extra ticket for the Spa and band's personal trainer/massage therapist for the roadie and with the amp's maint cycle, a complete teardown and rebuild is always just a concert or 2 away, so no worries!

*My friend Dan, is a personal Massage Therapist for a billionaire (not a band), he works on a superyacht most of the time, and handles all the massages. True story, poor guy.

[guitarzan]

I had that whole series for many years, but sold them off one by one until I now only have the Bass Master (BATT).

It’s just so useful to have a 1/2 rack full tube amp (though I use the Bass Master mostly in the role of power amp).

I ran vintage Bugle Boy 12AX7’s and Mullard EL84’s in the Blues Master and the Bass Master — those tubes would now cost quite a bit more than I paid for the units.

The Blues Master was my main amp for a long time and it was hard to part with, but I had gone back to combos by then and the price was way up. It was the only online sale I ever made where the buyer sent me a very sincere and heartfelt seeming message truly thanking me for selling it to him. I wish I still had that one to be honest, but the Bass Master was the most useful in a utilitarian way, and had the same core tone that I loved (cooking EL84).

I also still have two of the original version H&K Tubeman pedals (the ones with the selector switch for Rock, Blues, Jazz, or Funk). These things are great in their own right and are the one of the few pedals I ever owned that can convincingly do the Djent style chug thing that I whip out occasionally for a laugh. The Jazz setting can sound like the most beautiful slightly compressing Twin.

You and I have probably been on a similar path, chasing the low watt/DI recording dragon. I have a Tubeman, too. The Groove Tubes STP-G was the thing that finally made me give up on it, now I just use the Suhr Reactive Load so that the DI aspect doesn't have to be a consideration.

I'll admit that I was more willing to put in the extra effort with Tonex because of how bad every other experience has been. But now that I've figured out this capture after a capture thing, I think it's legitimately as good as miking a real amp.

Yeah, ToneX is the best of all so far, it’s the only thing I can get to sag and get the OT singing at any volume out of all of it.

The good news is now that I’m quite sure the short blast of noise I hear at the start of every note on overdriven captures is the pick attack aliasing, I’m pretty sure it can be avoided with an LPF before ToneX (maybe a brick wall limiter too), so all should be good — Especially if I do my own capture of everything including the stuff I added on after ToneX. And I will try capturing the cab separately — thanks for the tip!

I might switch to NAM though — it’s profiling that rules, IK still blows

[stoopicus]

Actually that POD sounds great if you open your mind and not care about absolute fidelity to the original, and just look for having some good and usable sounds. Those would all sound fine live or in a mix.

Then again nearly anything will sound good live. Most smaller venues have truly awful acoustics.

[stoopicus]

Yeah, ToneX is the best of all so far, it’s the only thing I can get to sag and get the OT singing at any volume out of all of it.

You think it's better than a Quad Cortex?

[guitarzan]

Yeah, ToneX is the best of all so far, it’s the only thing I can get to sag and get the OT singing at any volume out of all of it.

You think it's better than a Quad Cortex?

Tonex is the only profiler I have tried, so I probably should’ve just said profilers are the best thing I’ve tried. Tonex has room for improvement for sure.

[Naillerz78]

I think I mentioned in this thread that I have a holy grail AC30 sitting in my garage that a rock star friend loaned me. I almost never use it because A) it needs to be insanely loud to sound good and B) it's so valuable and irreplaceable that I'm paranoid about DI'ing it.

Really? I’ve played one at a rehearsal space and not too loud. Slightly dirty. with the reverb and Tremelo on it was Instant early era Rolling Stones / British Invasion sounds. Like SO good. I was very happy for those hours.

[Uncle E]

Really? I’ve played one at a rehearsal space and not too loud. Slightly dirty. with the reverb and Tremelo on it was Instant early era Rolling Stones / British Invasion sounds. Like SO good. I was very happy for those hours.

It's probably that "not too loud" for a rehearsal space is still "way too loud" for a quiet suburban neighborhood. There is zero dirt at any level I can play it at.

[zerocrossing]

...But now that I've figured out this capture after a capture thing, I think it's legitimately as good as miking a real amp.

I stopped my analysis and went on a little Tonex user library hunt, which I enjoy doing from time to time. I like to choose an amp company that I'm not really that familiar with, and check out captures. One thing I noticed after a while is, how few amp/cab captures sound good to me, which makes sense, because people don't know how to properly mic a cab, but when I found pure amp captures... that's where the magic is. Run them into Amplitube's cab section that's set up like I like it, and wow. Today's hunt was for Victory amps, and I swear I found a ton of excellent ones, but there was one user who had a bunch that were just gorgeous. Like, literally the best I've ever had my guitar sound, and that's including using classic great amps in professional studios.

The truth of the matter is, even if I could afford all the amps and gain boxes I'd want, and set up a room to record them and get the best mics, I'm not even sure I could get the sounds that I was easily getting today, by merely clicking on a name on a list. It's really magical times.

[stoopicus]

Actually one of the reasons I decided to go fully ITB for amp/cabsims is specifically that properly miking to get a tone as good as I could get with the sim was not trivial at all.