Real amps vs modelling and plugin amps

[Uncle E]

Did you ever play through the DT50? that seemed like an interesting concept. I think I listened to a few demos at one point, and I thought it seemed pretty good. No?

Right, I forgot about that one! For YnJ's sake, the DT50 was another tube amp designed by Reinhold Bogner, this time with reconfigurable analog stages to more accurately emulate vintage Fender and Marshall circuits. It linked with the Pod HD500 for a cross of analog and digital modeling. I liked it a lot at the time, I sort of doubt that I'd care for it now.

[YnJ]

All other digital amps are made with solid state components. When I was using my Tonex pedal with the Line 6 AmpliFi, it purely went through the solid state power section, with no digital processing involved. It was good (particularly for stereo effects!) but I personally prefer plugging in to my tube power amp

Are they made with solid state parts as drives as well? I'm pretty sure the Code 100H I have doesn't have much solid state in the parts that matter for the sound, neither the Fender Mustang GTX 50 I sold, though the latter sounded a lot better

What kind of power amp are you using? I'm content with the Peavey 60/60 I'm using now, as I can't recall how the Marshall Dual Block I sold used to sound. There's not much to choose from if you want tubes over here. A second Marshall Dual Block is almost as much as a second hand Mesa 50/50

The Code was really bad. Not sure how Marshall messed up so much on that one. Prob related to my answer to the below tho

Yes, it's crap even for a modeller amp. I have a Code amphead I have been struggling to sell, the resale value is almost nothing. Even second hand MG100H solid state ampheads are listed at almost twice as much

[CapnLockheed]

IMHO having more options is simply a good thing. Is a digital apple better than an analog orange? That's debatable. Personally, I find both tube amps and ampsims have their place. I use them all. For me, it's not a debate. It's simply freedom of choice. I've been playing long enough to remember when many of these choices did not exist. Now, I'm glad they do.

YMMV

[zerocrossing]

What I find funny, is that while we talk about digital amps and modelers that suck, I can run through many amps that I've come across over the years that were all tube and sucked. Peavey amps of the early 80s. Everything ENGL has ever produced. Garbage.

[Uncle E]

What kind of power amp are you using? I'm content with the Peavey 60/60 I'm using now, as I can't recall how the Marshall Dual Block I sold used to sound. There's not much to choose from if you want tubes over here. A second Marshall Dual Block is almost as much as a second hand Mesa 50/50I'm

I'm using the power section of a 5F6-A Tweed Bassman. I had a Mesa/Boogie 20/20 before, it wasn't as good.

[Uncle E]

What I find funny, is that while we talk about digital amps and modelers that suck, I can run through many amps that I've come across over the years that were all tube and sucked. Peavey amps of the early 80s. Everything ENGL has ever produced. Garbage.

Yes, true. I don't even like most of the amps that have brought up in comparison in this thread.

[tapper mike]

I hated my Butler Tube Driver, Don't even get me going on the solid states like Gorilla and Peavey amps. The south was sure proud of all that peavey stuff especially the guitars. Maybe because it was made in the USA. Most were unaware that Carvin and Washburn were making American made guitars. Carvin actually had some fairly decent amps and mixers.

[Uncle E]

That’s quite a bit more involved than I remember, but it’s been a long time, and that reads like the person that posted it had access to that original how-to article… definitely tackling the same problem anyway… nice find! I copied the whole thing to the Notes app on my iPhone. I probably have the original article copied on an ancient hard drive somewhere.

edit: Another great thing about the DG Stomp is that it can be used as a MIDI foot switch to control pretty much anything, other pedals, loopers…

I finally got around to doing this mod. Most of it is completely nonsensical, the MIDI and spdif don't ground with the metal, the jacks already make contact with the chassis on the other side, and the PCB screws don't make connection, but I went ahead and isolated the expression pedal and added washers to the jacks on the other side to increase the connection since they were easy to do. Comparing two DG Stomps side-by-side, I found the difference insignificant but possibly there.

On a positive note, while I was in there, I sprayed out all the pots and that completely fixed an issue it was having.

Oh, and I still don't like the DG Stomp.

[guitarzan]

That’s quite a bit more involved than I remember, but it’s been a long time, and that reads like the person that posted it had access to that original how-to article… definitely tackling the same problem anyway… nice find! I copied the whole thing to the Notes app on my iPhone. I probably have the original article copied on an ancient hard drive somewhere.

edit: Another great thing about the DG Stomp is that it can be used as a MIDI foot switch to control pretty much anything, other pedals, loopers…

I finally got around to doing this mod. Most of it is completely nonsensical, the MIDI and spdif don't ground with the metal, the jacks already make contact with the chassis on the other side, and the PCB screws don't make connection, but I went ahead and isolated the expression pedal and added washers to the jacks on the other side to increase the connection since they were easy to do. Comparing two DG Stomps side-by-side, I found the difference insignificant but possibly there.

On a positive note, while I was in there, I sprayed out all the pots and that completely fixed an issue it was having.

Oh, and I still don't like the DG Stomp.

The mod I remember I was sure was mostly about rerouting a ribbon cable or some wires, so maybe this wasn’t it at all.

I like the DG series, especially the Stomp — I think it’s pretty much the same modeling as the much more recent THR amps that are still quite popular. I always liked the glassy tube-like clean and light crunch tones. I really never found a modeler where I liked any higher gain than light overdrive, even now (except the original Pod, that had good distorted sounds on recordings, but the cleaner tones were way too dark. No feel at all on any tones). Plus the DG had a tiny bit of dynamic reaction, a little bit of sag, feel.

The DG could take pedals (with careful gain staging) in an era where everything else aliased too bad to even consider it.

Plus it’s a great MIDI switchboard. The fx aren’t bad either, the rotary speaker effect is good when the horn frequencies are compressed or overdriven slightly post-DG. Pretty good reverb, especially for being late-90’s digital that’s not Lexicon.

[zerocrossing]

I hated my Butler Tube Driver, Don't even get me going on the solid states like Gorilla and Peavey amps. The south was sure proud of all that peavey stuff especially the guitars. Maybe because it was made in the USA. Most were unaware that Carvin and Washburn were making American made guitars. Carvin actually had some fairly decent amps and mixers.

I recently got a Butler Tube Driver, and I find it one of the most difficult pedals to control. It's like the tone stack is active and before the drive circuit and it makes the whole thing super sensitive to minute changes. I almost sent it back, but I persevered and now that I'm used to it, I love it. Great for high gain stuff.

[Naillerz78]

Following on re the Tonemaster..
Not sure what’s going on with Fenders modelling actually , their attempts at digital amps and floor units has not really been a big success. They can do very good modelling of their own amps but when it comes to overdriven or gained models like Marshall , Recto etc they sound really mushy and woofy ?. Strange.

Only a rumor, but some suspect a person(s) involved in preset creation at Fender has hearing issues, and retains the job out of company loyalty, despite presets that are not widely acclaimed for greatness.
If that is the case, such loyalty could be bad for the company as a whole. The hearing-loss issue as a whole means it's important to hear potential purchases with our own ears, especially if gear 'reviews' and personal opinions vary wildly. If Leon and Tim both like something, I'd be happy to try it in some shop.

LOL. “Oh yeah that’s Old Bob .. he’s been with us for 70 years. Me made him the head of our digital R&D department “:D

[Naillerz78]

I love the fender amp emulations in Tonemaster. And that's a full stop for me. I could care less about the other amps that they try to model. I love the fact that I'm not hearing aliasing that I hear in every other amp modeller on the market including my Pod Go. Which isn't a deal crusher for me. I play as best I can let the unit perform as best it can with the patches and let the rest go.

The reason why I don't have Fender Tonemaster myself is I have limited financial resources and I'd rather spend them elsewhere. This great MFX and that great guitar is not going to earn me fame and fortune.

With regards to Tim Pierce. He's a great musician and storyteller. He plays umteen guitars and when Paul Reed Smith offers Tim a Private Reserve with all the options he bites full into it. Claming that the PRS is the only guitar to have and that people who don't like PRS guitars are full of it.

Tim Pierce has a deep dive review of the Tone Master Pro gives it glowing reviews and then comes up with his own custom patches only to play the "I need to see the pedal on the floor so I can instantly adjust values on the fly. I take that with a grain of salt after watching Jon Herringtons rig rundown when Steely Dan was still touring. Herrington put tape over the knobs so he couldn't adjust them before during or after the show.

This is interesting I may give it a whirl then as I prefer the Fender sound. Last fender modelling I tried was their Mustang 100W 2x12 combo. The fender models sounded very nice .. the Johnny Marr patches were fantastic.. but it had a bit of a white noise hiss going on which I googled and found was a common complaint by users. Plus its other models were muddy /mushy AF. So I thought nah there is no point, and it was punishingly loud.

Is there a cut down budget version of the Tonemaster yet? I am intrigued. I do like Tim Pierce and his session tales. Great player too. I prefer Tom Bukovac aka Uncle Larry tho, for his playing and tips. A mine of information that guy re lessons on scales, theory, tasty techniques and all around guitar playing wisdom

Rhett Shull on the other hand I cannot stand.

[Uncle E]

The fx aren’t bad either, the rotary speaker effect is good when the horn frequencies are compressed or overdriven slightly post-DG. Pretty good reverb, especially for being late-90’s digital that’s not Lexicon.

Yes, that's exactly why I used it, it was a convenient way to get a lot of effects with patch memory. The amount of hands-on control is generous even by today's standard.

[Uncle E]

I recently got a Butler Tube Driver, and I find it one of the most difficult pedals to control. It's like the tone stack is active and before the drive circuit and it makes the whole thing super sensitive to minute changes. I almost sent it back, but I persevered and now that I'm used to it, I love it. Great for high gain stuff.

I think he's referring to one of the Tube Driver amps. Imagine using your pedal with a mediocre solid state amp.

[Uncle E]

the Johnny Marr patches were fantastic..

Shouldn't that be enough? But I hear you on the noise, that's no good.