Need some advice, preferably from Industrial/EBM artists...

[trauma_complex]

Well, I've been writing and sequencing music on the computer for quite a while now, getting increasingly better over the years. I've been using FLStudio for awhile and know the goddamn program like the back of my own hand. I've been using that, a little behringer mixer, a full length keyboard and a little digitech vocal effects processor, but it seems like no matter how good I get, I can still only achieve a certain level of professional sounding music, that falls short of sounding full and rich enough to be sold or presented to a label. I've decided to make a change in what I'm using. I want to turn the downstairs basement room into a studio, with way better gear, and maybe throw in a little more hardware into the mix rather than soft synths. Maybe switch to a mac (better processing power) and try learning something with more features like Logic. But see I really don't know what a good reference for what I should be looking for is. So that's why I'm making this post, are there any artists out here, that maybe do industrial/ebm stuff? That can help me out with this, what are the best programs for really raising the bar in your music, what setup do you use? What products do you love? And please, to the FLStudio fanboys, I'm not bashing FL, I just want to learn MORE, I feel like I've completely learned FL to the MAX, I want to expand my knowledge and raise the bar in my music!

[neverwhere2012]

i've got 2 answers for you, my setup:

PowerMac G4 1.2GHz
OSX 10.3.6
Logic Pro 6.4.2
iDrum
Reason 2.5
Recycle 2.1
Bias Peak 4 LE
Universal Audio UAD-1 plugins
WaveArts plugins
various freeware plugins by DestroyFX/Smartelectronix/u-he/etc.
MOTU 828mkII
MOTU 896HD
M-Audio BX5 monitors
M-Audio midisport 4x4 midi i/o
M-Audio Radium 49 controller
AKG K240S headphones
Tascam M1600 16:8:2 recording console w/ meter bridge
dbx 163x compressors (2)
dbx 110 subharmonic synth
Korg Triton LE
Korg ER-1
Korg SP-200 piano
Novation K-Station
Roland MC307
Roland Super JX10
Roland JX8P
Roland PG800 programmer for JX series
Yamaha DX200
Yamaha DTXpress II digital drums
Oktava/MXL/Shure/Sennheiser/AKG microphones

with music here: www.soundclick.com/neverwhere

most of the music on my page was made in logic, all with software and occasionally little bits and pieces off my dx200 and er-1. the mixes vary as the amount of attention i pay to each song varies.

the other side of the spectrum is my friend who posts on this board as Xerocreep. he uses a setup similar to yours, FL5, behringer mixer, behringer channel strip, a decent guitar and tons of vst/vsti. he gets amazing results out of what he's got. music here: www.fullsystemfailure.com

so basically, you can invest any amount of money you want into it, i'd suggest sticking with FL if you've gotten proficient with it. invest in upgrading your current PC, download all the free plugins that come up in the KVR searches and get to know what ones sound the best and how to use them. you might look into a UAD-1 card or TC Powercore, but it's not necessary as you can achieve the same quality with native processing. i'd definitely suggest getting at least some kind of nice quality 2 channel A/D/A conversion for recording vocals and monitoring... and some decent monitors. perhaps a nice mic pre and mic too.

however, before you do anything, start reading up on mixing techniques and work on that first. might be all you need is some better insight on making a nice sounding mix.

[ouroboros]

I would work on the mixing end as well. It is a black art I still haven't figured out, but there are some professional musicians here who are only using what you have, or the equivalent.

[trauma_complex]

I have some nice plugins such as Hypersonic, Absynth and a few others that I don't use as often. I've gotten to know them quite well, I use like 20 different hypersonics in every track heh. But I just don't know, yeah maybe it's just my mixing techniques I suppose. One thing I know I need is a better vocal effects processor and a real time vocoder, but that doesn't really have much to do with the subject. Tomorrow I'm meeting with a guy in town that owns a half million dollar studio to discuss these questions of mine. I feel like I get better and better at writing music, but in the end my tracks still sound sorta flat and distorted when played too loud. I mess with compressors and equalizers to the brink of insanity but I still seem to come up with the same level of quality in sound. Maybe there's just a few tricks in mastering that I haven't really figured out yet, regardless, it's frustrating, I've been going at this for 5 years now, and although my progress is more than formidable, it just doesn't reach that rich and clear quality of sound that I long for...

edit : btw neverwhere, really dig those tracks of yours, the music is great, I was aching to hear some vocals going along with it though. And full system failure really does sound amazing for something being made with a similair setup to mine, just don't really like guitars

[Wormhelmet]

I'm a firm believer that mixing is definitely an artform that takes awhile to get the hang of. I'm pretty much positive that I could have a $50000.00 studio setup and still bungle it due to my lack of experience. Trial and error mixing school attendee here.

[BONES]

I use ORION Platinum, JX Synth and a bunch of synths I made in SynthEdit. That's basically what we used on our last album and prety much all we're using on the new one. You can check out some snippets by clicking on my signature banner or by visiting www.metropolis-records.com and looking for NOVAkILL.

Fruity should be fine for getting pro quality songs out of, although I always struggled against the workflow. Buying a Mac and Logic will just mean a year down the toilet learning how to use it. I am about to post a list of "everything you need to release an album for under $50" thread and I am sure it could be done.

If you want, I am more than happy to listen to some of your stuff and offer advice on how to improve it.

neverwhere2012, I'm listening to "Disintegrator" [lo-fi] at the moment - nice stuff. Sounds like it was arranged for vocals that aren't there?

[stefancrs]

I seriously seriously seriously doubt that it's your equipment that is the problem.

Do dare post a mp3 of yours and we'll tell you what we think you're doing wrong (and it will NOT be "your synths are lo-fi")

[neverwhere2012]

neverwhere2012, I'm listening to "Disintegrator" [lo-fi] at the moment - nice stuff. Sounds like it was arranged for vocals that aren't there?

hit the nail on the head, bones. school, work, wife and 2 year old daughter currently prevent me from getting anything done past fleshing out songs and mixing to a point where it's not horrendous

[trauma_complex]

I seriously seriously seriously doubt that it's your equipment that is the problem.

Do dare post a mp3 of yours and we'll tell you what we think you're doing wrong (and it will NOT be "your synths are lo-fi")

I never thought my synths were bad, just the host, but apparantely that's not what I'm missing either. To BONES, I listened to the entire CD at a friends house the other week, I AM SPECIAL, I AM SPECIAL. Hehe

As for a track of my own, sure, here is a remix I did recently of an older song of mine.


_________________

[stefancrs]

I'd say that the main problem here is the choice of sounds (the intro pad sounds like it's taken from a 1993 techno track imo ), the fact that some of the melodies (mainly that first one that kicks in together with the pad and the bass drum) sounds like cheap "hard mtv techno for the mainstream" But that melody kinda works later on in the track, apart from that it's the mixing that is the problem. The sounds aren't separated/defined good enough, and instead you get a muddy sound. The piano was kinda off as well. It reminded me of some funker vogt'ish piano, but their pianos usually sound like someone actually came up with the piano track on an actual piano

Sorry if I'm being a bit harsh and crude. Also, and I may be wrong here, it sounded like you hade a quite slow compressor on the main mix, making it sound like the vocals got "pushed away" by other sounds etc.

But! According to me, your main problem is that you don't use EQ and Compressors in the right way. And the kick is a wee bit sissy:ish

[wrench45us]

i'd take a couple of samples of your work when you meet with the studio guy

i think in 20 minutes if he's any good at all he should be able to show/teach you a ton of stuff

most of us have had to pick up this production stuff from articles and online discussions, but nothing in my mind can stand up to good old fashioned mentoring. half hour with someone who knows what they're doing could be the equivalent of 3 months of diddling on your own (that really doesn't sound quite like I wanted it to sound, but I think we know what I mean to say)

[verstaerker]

But! According to me, your main problem is that you don't use EQ and Compressors in the right way. And the kick is a wee bit sissy:ish

thats what i thought too - learn mixing , try compressors, limiter and EQs - there are a lot free ones out (classic series by Kjaerhus is a good start)

i bought the GCO from Kjaerhus which is really a great sounding tool
maybe give the Microtonic Drumsynth a try to get better drumsounds

try to clean up ur mix - it sounds so washed out
don't put too many stuff in - keep it simple in the beginnig and add additional sounds later and not with full volume

work on your melodies, they are a bit cheesy :sorry:

[trauma_complex]

I'd say that the main problem here is the choice of sounds (the intro pad sounds like it's taken from a 1993 techno track imo ), the fact that some of the melodies (mainly that first one that kicks in together with the pad and the bass drum) sounds like cheap "hard mtv techno for the mainstream" But that melody kinda works later on in the track, apart from that it's the mixing that is the problem. The sounds aren't separated/defined good enough, and instead you get a muddy sound. The piano was kinda off as well. It reminded me of some funker vogt'ish piano, but their pianos usually sound like someone actually came up with the piano track on an actual piano

Sorry if I'm being a bit harsh and crude. Also, and I may be wrong here, it sounded like you hade a quite slow compressor on the main mix, making it sound like the vocals got "pushed away" by other sounds etc.

But! According to me, your main problem is that you don't use EQ and Compressors in the right way. And the kick is a wee bit sissy:ish

Well the remix is supposed to be dancy and techno-ish, as opposed to the original, much slower, and much different version of the song. Thanks for such dedicated repies, I've had a feeling that I don't know everything I should about EQ-ing and Compressors, as that seems to be what people say is the most important in getting a professional sounding mix. Truth is I really don't know much about why compressors are so important, I know a little about what they do but I don't get it I guess. Also the reason the vocals sound kinda muddy is I had an EQ on the vocal tracks with the high frequencies turned down to make it more playable loud because there were a few noises in the vocal tracks that were not pleasant to the ear at times. I wish I knew how to accomplish this without making the vocals muddy but I really don't. I'm also not really sure how to "define" and "seperate" the tracks any more than I have, I layer and use panning, and try to balance the volume levels as well as I can through several frustrating days of knob tweaking.

EDIT : Yes I am definately taking samples of my work when I meet up with him later, hope this is a beneficial experience, although his main focus is nowhere near electronic music, I'm sure it really doesn't matter.

[Gargoyle]

Welcome relapsed

I'd agree with most of the comments made already. You have some decent ideas in this track and I'm sure with a bit of work it could really turn out well.

I would recommend you take a bit of time with each track in FL with the Spectroman or with Elemental Audio's Inspector. Compare these side by side so you can broadly see what kind of frequency range each is taking up and where some of the sound "conflicts" or competing frequencies are happening.

Panning and volume takes you part of the way there - your EQing should complete the journey

Overall there's a lack of mid range sounds to the track. For example, it's crying out for one of those synth sounds to have a bit of edge and brightness to act as the hook for the rest of it. Some EQing would help here, but you might consider also lowering the volume of the pad/strings a bit, especially on the lower octaves. That would help with allowing your kicks to breathe a bit too.

Re: the vox - perhaps you should do some editing outside of FL in order to get themin shape before using it? Or scrap them for now... think of where they'll be in the mix overall, and concentrate on getting everything else right first?

Personally, if I don't know what I'm doing, I won't do it. So when it comes to compression, I'd just not use any until I'm absolutely sure I need it and understand how and where I need it. You can do much with EQ alone and then add the "punch" which compression can give you, as and when you need it.

Maybe really carefully listen to some reference material from a band that you like the sound of and consider where and how the instruments are distinguished from one another and balanced out overall. I find Assemblage23 mixes are pretty good for this - everything seems to fit together very well, even in the most complex passages.

Anyway, there are some good elements to the track and it therefore deserves to be presented in a more punchy and clear way.

[BONES]

This track f**king rocks! Seriously, this is the best song I have ever heard from KVR. The mix could be clearer but it takes me back to the glory days. Sort of reminds me of Placebo Effect in the early/mid '90's. I f**king love it! All it needs is a bit of a clean-up - EQ, perhaps smarter use of other effects and maybe a few tweaks of some of the sounds.