LiquidSonics: Synced values for pre-delay or echo don't work [solved]

[SamDi]

I found a behaviour, which seems to consistently spread over all plugins from LS.

If I try to set pre-delay or echo as a synced value, it doesn't take this. Just keeps the value, which was set in unsynced mode. No chance to get the synced value.

Tested with Cinematic Pro, Seventh Heaven, Tai Chi and Illusion on Windows 11 with Ableton Live and Nuendo as VST3 version. All the same.

Can anybody confirm this behavior or is it misuse or incident on my side?

[HcDoom]

Contact LS - they reply within hours.

[liquidsonics]

I'm not seeing this in Live or Nuendo, perhaps you can send a reproducible test case with full specs via support. Please be aware that most of the reverbs do not include the reflections within the pre-delay by design so maybe that's what you're observing.

[SamDi]

I'm not seeing this in Live or Nuendo, perhaps you can send a reproducible test case with full specs via support. Please be aware that most of the reverbs do not include the reflections within the pre-delay by design so maybe that's what you're observing.

Thanks for reply. I am going to contact support then. Unfortunately there is no deep testcase. It's just that synced time settings do not work at all. I can change the parameter in unsynced-mode and can clearly hear the changes, but as soon as I enable the sync button, the value, which I have set in unsynced mode is kept and the knob has no impact anymore. Switching back to unsynced, I can change the parameter and here the impact as usual. It has nothing to with the reflections not included in the pre-delay, because the changes are hearable for not-synced values and not for synced values.

Edit: I found out, that synced values work now, but only if DAW is playing (Ableton). As soon as play is stopped, the unsynced value is taken no matter if it is set to synced or not. Strange, I could swear I tried that also this morning but it didn't work then.

[liquidsonics]

How are you determining that it has not taken the new delay value if there is no audio playing? Perhaps I have a workflow blind spot here but isn't it only possible to know that during playback? While that is true (it updates sync delay times only during playback as that is the only time we can be sure to acquire valid playhead stats such as the host's tempo, time signature, etc), this is only important when audio is passing in playback as far as I understand it. I've checked in Live 12 that if we update the delay tempo sync value (e.g. change from 1/8 to 1/16) when playback is stopped that as soon as playback begins it picks up the updated value and adjusts, so in practise I am not seeing an issue. If I'm missing anything please do let me know, ideally via support so I don't miss it. Thanks.

[Funky40]

.........that as soon as playback begins it picks up the updated value and adjusts, so in practise I am not seeing an issue.

I see here an issue: the user might want to jam a instrument with the full final sound as a preparation for some recording work, assoon the player is ready.
One might want to jam/exercise with all sounddetails in place, sequenzer stopped. etc.
One would think that the plugin would pick up a BPM setting based on host-sync, at least after hitting play once, i.....and would keep that setting. To have the "time" setting jump back on the Reverb, as has been decribed, seems wrong.


to notes: i come from live-play host usage (GP). If i would hit record would it not be in my host, it would be in the DAW, my host would not have "play" active. And i would record my instrument patch with the Reverb on* (* which is LS - CRP )
I had several times big poblems with plugins that require the host just to run. NOT reverbs ! But looks to me that some Devs are overlooking how some folks work.

To me it´s clear, once the tempo has been picked up from the plugin, say by hitting the play button, that (bpt/ time) setting has to be set and kept. The plugin must keep that setting.
( jfyi: as mentioned, i am a LS customer)

it never occoured to me to set time on sync vs. CRP. But it´s actually a good idea. i see uses for that. again, my host would even not run ! but i can follow the idea that i had to run the hosts "play" at least once ....per freshly set BPM setting)


sorry for becoming long. That´s how language works for me.
I LOVE LS Reverbs btw. . To a 100% my GoTo. plus 7th, plus Chi


PS, i send you a PM on a completly other matter

[liquidsonics]

I expect that live hosts that do not have a traditional 'play' concept would still have the opportunity to provide playhead metadata during a live audio state which is a functional equivalent if they have a concept of tempo to provide to the plugin.

[SamDi]

How are you determining that it has not taken the new delay value if there is no audio playing? Perhaps I have a workflow blind spot here but isn't it only possible to know that during playback? While that is true (it updates sync delay times only during playback as that is the only time we can be sure to acquire valid playhead stats such as the host's tempo, time signature, etc), this is only important when audio is passing in playback as far as I understand it. I've checked in Live 12 that if we update the delay tempo sync value (e.g. change from 1/8 to 1/16) when playback is stopped that as soon as playback begins it picks up the updated value and adjusts, so in practise I am not seeing an issue. If I'm missing anything please do let me know, ideally via support so I don't miss it. Thanks.

If a play an VST instrument via keyboard for making presets or browsing presets or noodling around or practicing a melody or working on track FX chain I don't want the DAW to play.

I could understand, that if a DAW doesn't update tempo information while not playing, that LS reverbs would not update synced time settings in dependence of DAW tempo either.

But I do not understand, why LS reverbs fallback to unsynced value instead of keeping the last synced value when DAW stops. Also I do not understand why it should not be possible to change the synced value (1/4 or 1/8 or 1/8. etc) calculated at least according to the last sent tempo information even when DAW is stopped.

I just did the effort to countercheck the behaviour of an competitor (which evokes associations with an ancient German/Scandinavian paradise).
There tempochanges are taken also when AL is stopped. It seems not to be a technical issue related to VST3 standard, that you don't get DAW tempo when DAW is stopped, but by LS design/implementation.

To be be honest, that synced values are not available when DAW is stopped is just an odd an unexpected behaviour.

[liquidsonics]

Thanks for explaining that the scenario is using instruments without playback active, this can indeed be looked at.

[ROTMetro]

I have ran into un-sync'd tempo stuff quite often. FYI I'm using Ableton.

Using 'last sync'd' option creates a situation that only works if someone has ran then stopped the DAW. So it is going to have hidden, inconsistent behavior. That's not necesarily a great solution that you propose.

[db3]

I can't say I've noticed any synths or effects which don't sync correctly with Live BPM without the DAW being played.

[Calagan]

I must say that the issue described here never occured to me, but I also use Live for playing (on stage for exemple) and in some situations I play something with Live not running. I would be annoyed having a different feel in this situation compared to when Live is running.

[SamDi]

Using 'last sync'd' option creates a situation that only works if someone has ran then stopped the DAW. So it is going to have hidden, inconsistent behavior. That's not necesarily a great solution that you propose.

If you refer to my post, compared to today‘s implementation, I find my solution relatively great or at least better.

Compared to the perfect behaviour, that synced values, just work correctly, no matter if DAW ist running or stopped, it is of course not so geat.

[ROTMetro]

Today, it makes sense:
When the DAW is running, it's sync'd to the DAW. When not, it's sync'd to internal settings you can adjust.

Your proposal:
On startup, it's sync'd to internal settings.
When the DAW running, it's sync'd to DAW
After running, it's syn'd to the DAW's state WHEN THE DAW LAST RAN (not the specific value currently set in the DAW, but whatever the value happened to be last time it ran and updated the plugin).

That is a horrible design. It still doesn't match the DAWs CURRENT STATE, only last run. It has different behavior between startup resting state (use internal) and post having ran resting state (whatever the DAWs value was the last time it was ran).

Imagine this. Reverb internally is set to 120. I run a project, set's tempo to 80bpm. I open a new project set to 120. Reverb runs at 80 (tempo of last project ran). I check my project, it's 120. I check settings, it's 120. But reverb is giving me 80? WTF?

Not a good solution.

[SamDi]

Today, it makes sense:
When the DAW is running, it's sync'd to the DAW. When not, it's sync'd to internal settings you can adjust.

Your proposal:
On startup, it's sync'd to internal settings.
When the DAW running, it's sync'd to DAW
After running, it's syn'd to the DAW's state WHEN THE DAW LAST RAN (not the specific value currently set in the DAW, but whatever the value happened to be last time it ran and updated the plugin).

That is a horrible design. It still doesn't match the DAWs CURRENT STATE, only last run. It has different behavior between startup resting state (use internal) and post having ran resting state (whatever the DAWs value was the last time it was ran).

Imagine this. Reverb internally is set to 120. I run a project, set's tempo to 80bpm. I open a new project set to 120. Reverb runs at 80 (tempo of last project ran). I check my project, it's 120. I check settings, it's 120. But reverb is giving me 80? WTF?

Not a good solution.

I agree, that today's behaviour is more consistent in it's wrongness, than my proposed solution.

But since I do work on the stopped DAW very often and in comparison change the tempo very seldom in a project, my solution wouldn't pain me so much and thus it would be the better one for me. Don't know, if I can speak only for myself or if more guys would think like that.

Anyway, this discussion is pointless and academic, because since it's perfectly achievable, that a plugin syncs to DAW-tempo, also when the DAW is stopped, it should just take the correct set value. That's the common expected behaviour from everyone, I dare to say.