Big fat controversial take

[billinder33]

I realized that after working on some new music that I barely use classic/retro plugins anymore (one example beeing the tascam emulations from ik and the rc series from native).
And I wondered if most of the fixation in the plugin and producer world isn't a bit too much?
I mean there L2A's, 1176's, SSL's & Neve's eq and compressors on mass. So much it's ridiculous.
And in the end 9/10 times most of us use for mixing our stock tools and sometimes some more specific tools like some saturators,r-vox, r-bass, ozone, airwindows stuff...

You omitted sharing what type of music you make. It can have quite a big bearing on what tools you want to use.

Not the poster you responded to, but I do agree with his perspective. I work on 'conventional' music from time to time (non EDM/rap) but rarely use emulations.

Most of what the emulations are doing (subtle harmonics, subtle L/R differences, etc) can be replicated with modern tools (ex: PRO-Q4's new harmonics feature) or by chaining component tools (stereo splitters, noise, saturator, randomizers, etc.) together. May be less convenient at scale and might not match a specific hardware unit as closely. But the benefit is more control and often workflow speed and reduced decision making. At a basic level, that's what most emulations are doing internally anyhow - mostly the same set of algorithms stitched together behind a real world UI.

I did recently buy the Vertigo VSS-2 for buss work and it replaced a chain of 6 or 7 separate plugins, so a workflow improvement for sure. Does that 80's/90's 'glue' thing very nicely, and quickly. Also still use the Vertigo comp on masters. So I'm not completely against emulations even I'm down to just those two (and occasionally True Iron, if that counts). I still track live instruments with fairly 'colored' units. But I don't miss the days of using Waves Shoeps73, Acoustica Pink, ect. on individual tracks.

[_leras]

What’s funny is that I liked the Arturia the least… and then realized that it was the closest to the Neve by a pretty wide margin. Funny he thinks the UAD sounds closest, because I think it’s my favorite, but also the furthest from the target, which was my least favorite.

I preferred the UAD, the top end was more natural, arturia was too much in the top end - but did he say he was only testing the preamp as the slate didn't have EQ? The Lindell 80 has a great preamp to me, but perhaps not quite as good EQ to UAD.

It's a pretty limited EQ, I've always thought it best to help something have a bit more mids poke through in a mix. Top end is also nice but there are other good tops end eqs out there too.

The good things about this EQ, is it's a tuned EQ it does what it does with its bands, so it's easy to get a feel for and very quick to try out on a sound.

This is perhaps one of the best things about emulations is they are often simple, and do have a favour that can make a mix sound like 'a record'.

(Of course modern music has moved away from that classic 'record' sound a bit, but not completely)

[_leras]

Not the poster you responded to, but I do agree with his perspective. I work on 'conventional' music from time to time (non EDM/rap) but rarely use emulations.

Most of what the emulations are doing (subtle harmonics, subtle L/R differences, etc) can be replicated with modern tools (ex: PRO-Q4's new harmonics feature) or by chaining component tools (stereo splitters, noise, saturator, randomizers, etc.) together.

I did recently buy the Vertigo VSS-2 for buss work and it replaced a chain of 6 or 7 separate plugins, so a workflow improvement for sure. Does that 80's/90's 'glue' thing very nicely, and quickly. Also still use the Vertigo comp on masters. So I'm not completely against emulations even I'm down to just those two (and occasionally True Iron, if that counts). I still track live instruments with fairly 'colored' units. .

Yes, sure a kiddy EDM track of serum and samples slammed through OTT doesn't need a 70s treatment, and the overall genre style is perhaps Live, OTT, and perhaps FF EQ3/4.

But there would probably still be some things emulations could help with.

Outside of the hyper pop EDM there's plenty of electronic music where there's still something to be said for crafting a mix a bit more musically/sophisticatedly.

For Rap there's tons of use for emulations. Vocals and processing of old samples, or things to match old samples.

Are emulations needed, no, but an LA2A brings something fabfilter probably doesn't, as do channel strips, and many of the mastering compressors and eqs. Mixing is often the sum of hundreds of small choices that make quite small changes, but add to something overall.

[plexuss]

Ok, I have a big, big controversial take. Do we really need more retro eqs, compressors and limiters?

I don't. I have limited my product purchases to those that do something I dont have and need. With the selection I have, that doesn't allow for very many new purchases. I am ok having a couple/few of a given model but I don't need/want any more than that. On the other hand there are plugin users that like to collect and mess around with them. If that's the case, they will always want something new to try out. There are still markets for new ideas around these old emulations. let the market decide thrugh their purchase decisions.

On the other hand, if there is something innovative and effective with a new but otherwise ubiquitous emualtion, then that may be worth considering for purchase. Seems we might be near a ceiling in terms of this, though. It's rare that some ultra cool emulation plugin comes out, but it does happen. We may be getting close to a shake-out in the industry.

[_leras]

We're getting benefits from both new tech, and finessing models of great sounding classic tools.

Everytime someone improves modelled of some classic analog tool, it makes it possible to include that in newer tools.

And it's not as if new tech isn't happening and affecting quality of mixes.

e.g.

Side chain frequency ducking from soothe is now in multiple tools.

Spectral based envelopes for seperate transient and body processing.

What more are you actually hoping for from new tech, than these type of things.

(And fk ai. )

[billinder33]

My issue with emulations was that over time one ultimately collects a bunch of these. So I would start with a compressor or EQ that I thought would be appropriate or the track. Around 70% of the time it would, but the other 30% of the time I'd not be fully satisfied and try another option or combination. Multiply that times 20-40 tracks and a lot of time gets wasted.

So by shifting to do-it-all solutions like Pro-Q4 and Impress 3 that solve almost all problems, I was able to shift my mindset from one of "what plugin is appropriate here?" to one of "what problem am I trying to solve?". And at that point mixing got a lot easier. Less decisions, better visual feedback, faster workflow.

There are ways to approximate real world devices, at least enough that most listeners wouldn't be about to tell a difference. Someday I'd love to see a plug-in that acts as an analog wrapper which can host VSTs where you can insert a clean EQ or compressor plug-in (or two instances for dual mono) and it would allow you to configure input and output transformers, tube stages, slew rates, low amounts of noise, high and low passes at the extreme ended of the frequency spectrum, etc. Basically all the things analog does, configurable at pre and post stages.

[jtsterays]

Saturation is overrated.

[Starbright]

I realized that after working on some new music that I barely use classic/retro plugins anymore (one example beeing the tascam emulations from ik and the rc series from native).
And I wondered if most of the fixation in the plugin and producer world isn't a bit too much?
I mean there L2A's, 1176's, SSL's & Neve's eq and compressors on mass. So much it's ridiculous.
And in the end 9/10 times most of us use for mixing our stock tools and sometimes some more specific tools like some saturators,r-vox, r-bass, ozone, airwindows stuff...

You omitted sharing what type of music you make. It can have quite a big bearing on what tools you want to use.

If you want to sound like every other ITB basic bitch, that completely up to you.

Actually I'm doing a mixture of rock and pop. This is one I wrote for a contest, which I will realease officially next week (after finding out why it glitched at one point): https://hofa-contest.com/song/21522/

[Starbright]

My issue with emulations was that over time one ultimately collects a bunch of these. So I would start with a compressor or EQ that I thought would be appropriate or the track. Around 70% of the time it would, but the other 30% of the time I'd not be fully satisfied and try another option or combination. Multiply that times 20-40 tracks and a lot of time gets wasted.

So by shifting to do-it-all solutions like Pro-Q4 and Impress 3 that solve almost all problems, I was able to shift my mindset from one of "what plugin is appropriate here?" to one of "what problem am I trying to solve?". And at that point mixing got a lot easier. Less decisions, better visual feedback, faster workflow.

There are ways to approximate real world devices, at least enough that most listeners wouldn't be about to tell a difference. Someday I'd love to see a plug-in that acts as an analog wrapper which can host VSTs where you can insert a clean EQ or compressor plug-in (or two instances for dual mono) and it would allow you to configure input and output transformers, tube stages, slew rates, low amounts of noise, high and low passes at the extreme ended of the frequency spectrum, etc. Basically all the things analog does, configurable at pre and post stages.

I think with something like Kushview elements or Waves Studio Rack and some Airwindows plugins this should be possible... I know it's doable in Reaper and Ableton.

[billinder33]

My issue with emulations was that over time one ultimately collects a bunch of these. So I would start with a compressor or EQ that I thought would be appropriate or the track. Around 70% of the time it would, but the other 30% of the time I'd not be fully satisfied and try another option or combination. Multiply that times 20-40 tracks and a lot of time gets wasted.

So by shifting to do-it-all solutions like Pro-Q4 and Impress 3 that solve almost all problems, I was able to shift my mindset from one of "what plugin is appropriate here?" to one of "what problem am I trying to solve?". And at that point mixing got a lot easier. Less decisions, better visual feedback, faster workflow.

There are ways to approximate real world devices, at least enough that most listeners wouldn't be about to tell a difference. Someday I'd love to see a plug-in that acts as an analog wrapper which can host VSTs where you can insert a clean EQ or compressor plug-in (or two instances for dual mono) and it would allow you to configure input and output transformers, tube stages, slew rates, low amounts of noise, high and low passes at the extreme ended of the frequency spectrum, etc. Basically all the things analog does, configurable at pre and post stages.

I think with something like Kushview elements or Waves Studio Rack and some Airwindows plugins this should be possible... I know it's doable in Reaper and Ableton.

You can definitely use a Chain in Bitwig ('Rack' in Ableton) and insert individual transformer, valve, slew, filters, etc. plugins in any desired order, but a single plugin wrapper with built-for-purpose functions and the option for each to be pre or post (or both) would be a huge workflow upgrade over a Chain/Rack.

That would be a very niche tool that would sell 10s of copies for sure!.. maybe even dozens if it was on Plugin Alliance!!!

[El°HYM]

...just dont forget to add some 20k - filters in between.

[Starbright]

...just dont forget to add some 20k - filters in between.

Thanks for the tipp, I'll try that out in Ableton first and then I'll try to do it in Waves Rack vst

[_leras]

Actually I'm doing a mixture of rock and pop. This is one I wrote for a contest, which I will realease officially next week (after finding out why it glitched at one point): https://hofa-contest.com/song/21522/

Nice song and track. I've gotta say though, this is exactly the sort of music that would really benefit from some of these classic emulations.

Once you get into mixing vocals and instruments is where I think these things shine. I use UAD extensively, and it's on the real vocals and instruments that they really shine.

(I am mainly electronic type music, where tools can elevate the music, but not always as much!)

[martiu]

Ok, I have a big, big controversial take. Do we really need more retro eqs, compressors and limiters?

you need all the limiters