SWAY - a synth modeled after the Yamaha SY77

[IvyBirds]

But they recreated the DX7 algo, exactly. There just is no other way to do it.

No they didn't and that's the problem

You're asking for 4 feedback loops so that's not possible no matter how you slice it.

But I am not asking for 4 feedback loops again all I am looking to do what is drawn in red and that is to use not 4 but three feedback loops

Screenshot_20250920-154117__03.jpg

In the original DX7 Algo there was only one Feedback loop and that was operator 3 fedback to itself. The DX7 only had one feedback loop available

If in the SY that Algo had been duplicated exactly I could easily do what I want because I could just move that from Operator 3 to Operator 6, and then use the two others to connect 1&2 with 5

But the Yamaha engineers didn't recreate that Algo 100% exactly the same. If they had the output from 3 would have just been duplicated between 1&2 but instead they wasted a feedback loop and used that to connect 3&1. That's the green line in my drawing which is just recreating the line Yamaha used in the onscreen graphics to highlight this

So to recap and finally put this to rest once and for all

1.)The DX7 is not using a feedback loop to connect 1&3
2.)The SY77 is using a feedback loop to connect 1&3

So no the algorithm was not recreated exactly. If it had there would not be that feedback loop between 1&3

As a result there is actually a rather significant difference in how it was done. That difference doesn't matter if all you are trying to do is recreate a specific DX7 patch

However because they didn't recreate it exactly it causes an issue if you want to modify it and use the 3 available feedback loops to do anything else but connect 3 with 1 as Yamaha's engineers wasted feedback loop

One of the best features about the SY77/TG77 was that you had the 3 feedback loops that were very flexible and easy to use. You could load an algorithm and then go to the Feedback Matrix Page which was easy to use and get to and modify or create 3 extra connections between whatever operators you want. This could radically alter and create new algorithms without having to use Sysex and make new ones from scratch. Having a single Modulator modulate two different operators with a single non feedback loop connection would have been a very powerful thing. It's just a shame that's not how Yamaha decided to do it

[mholloway]

You do all realize we are just going in circles here, yes?

Far past time to move on...

[Uncle E]

It’s OT because this thread isn’t about DX7’s. All the more power to Sheaf if he has recreated a limitation/shortcoming that actually is in the SY77.

[seafire]

No pun intended

[IvyBirds]

It’s OT because this thread isn’t about DX7’s. All the more power to Sheaf if he has recreated a limitation/shortcoming that actually is in the SY77.

And my post never was about the DX7, all I did was point out correctly that the SY77 had different Algos than the DX7 and there were algos on the DX7 that are missing on the SY77

But certain people couldn't handle that and kept on insisting they were exactly the same and that simply is not true and never have been true

An FM algorithm in Yamaha's speak is a preset collection of Operators arranged and connected in a certain way. The connected in a certain way is the important part

In the SY77 the operators are simply not connected the same way and as a result you lose the ability to modify all 3 feedback loops and only have 2

That's a shortcoming of the SY77 that prevents you from doing certain things. This has been a shortcoming of the SY77 from the very beginning, that I noticed way back in 1990. This has always been an SY77 issue and has always been the case, despite the multiple temper tantrums that Evildragon has displayed and despite the incredible amount of times he has declared reality to false and the falsehoods he has spewed to be reality

How is talking about the SY77's algorithms OT on a thread about a plugin that emulates them?

If you want to complain about people going OT why don't you complain about Evildragon who kept on doing exactly that rather than just admitting that yes the way that Algorithm is implemented on the SY77 is different? It obviously is to anyone who understands FM programming, who understands the DX7, and who understands the SY77

[mholloway]

read the room, dude...

[jbraner]

read the room, dude...

Is anyone left in the room?

[Uncle E]

If you want to complain about people going OT why don't you complain about Evildragon who kept on doing exactly that rather than just admitting that yes the way that Algorithm is implemented on the SY77 is different?

I like you and EvilDragon, and I like reading both of your posts. But in a thread called "SWAY - a synth modeled after the Yamaha SY77", this discussion is OT.

[JamminFool]

read the room, dude...

Is anyone left in the room?

this is what the bird does in every thread. like a broken record. hard to do, but best to ignore.

[ghettosynth]

read the room, dude...

Is anyone left in the room?

Those of us interested in Sway developments are still here. I even managed to get something out of the silly discussion, just most likely not what anyone thinks, i.e., nothing to do with Sway and nothing to do with the DX7.

I think that it is fair to compare SWAY to other offerings that combine samples and FM in some way, but, it doesn't invalidate a product because some other product does something similar, or even in some sense, identical. If that were true, nobody would ever sell another ladder filter again.

[jbraner]

Well, I'm glad there are still people here - because it was getting a little boring

All credit to the guys who understand these algorithms and how to get the best out of them - it's just that things were going around in circles for a while.

[bnz]

I'm interested in Sway only for the AWM2 emulation. FM is like my Soundblaster.

[Caesarg86]

Exciting times will be coming for us all! Can't wait until the release of this VST!

[soundman007]

I think that it is fair to compare SWAY to other offerings that combine samples and FM in some way, but, it doesn't invalidate a product because some other product does something similar, or even in some sense, identical.

Is this in any way to be compared?

https://www.tracktion.com/products/f-em

[Compyfox]

I am sorry - I am not as active on KVR anymore as I try to steer away from endless finger pointing, circle-walking and ultimately also stabs below the waistline these days. Which, this thread has (once more sadly) also morphed into.

However, I did read up on Yamaha's history and tech a lot in recent months. Also because I want to revive certain equipment I have at my disposal for way over 25 years, yet never went beyond scratching the surface.



The whole DX7 compared to SY77/SY99 commentary is silly, IMHO.

From my understanding, YMMV of course, both the DX7 and the SY77/SY99 have the same amount of operators. For the most part, also the same algorithms. Although I'd need to have manuals open to compare both. So there is a baseline between these two devices. The only valid point of argument in my opinion, are the routing capabilities. And yes, here both the SY77/TG77 and the later SY99 is superior to the DX7 and it's various upgraded variants. That is more than apparent.

HOWEVER... the features talked about are not possible directly from the UI. You need to use SYSEX and/or a custom patch editor in order to be able to route freely within the SY77/SY99. With engine limitations, like the maximum 3 feedback paths.

This is IMHO what this boils down to.

So everyone being in this argument for pages, is correct in their own way.
Let's leave it at that.

SWAY will be able to do things that FM-X/HALion can't, but HALion can also do a ton of things that SWAY won't be able to do

Er... sorry, but I can not and will not confirm that. Not for the whole statement at least.


SWAY is, of course, locked to the SY99 max - with the main focus of what has been presented so far to the public (there are also no leaks from Beta Testers) being the SY77/TG77... plus the option to load SYSEX and then some.

Looking at Steinberg/Yamaha HALion and FM Lab (or the FM Zone for that matter)... then it is also true that HALion 7 can not just simply load SY77/TG77 or SY99 presets (or SYSEX, rather). Especially not RCM based ones. Heck, it can't even load presets from my Yamaha RY-30, which belongs to the SY/TG series (yes, half the TG77 engine is in there!). But that's just a side-note.

You can however recreate all AFM based SY77/SY99 presets. Something that HALion 7 (FM Zone) / FM Lab (standalone) can pull off easily with the custom routing matrix and all available stock FM waveforms (which covers the SY99).


You can technically even recreate all AWM2/AFM hybrid setups with HALion 7 - through the help of the "Zones", from which you can use multiple in one program. If you fancy limiting yourself in terms of polyphony, you can even do that. Plus, the whole GM stock sounds are the AWM2 content that was heard in/is known from the MU-Series (Tone Generators) and the early MOTIF units up until the time HALion got the MOTIF sounds with HALion Sonic (pre HALion 4 release in 2011). I still remember what a big deal that was back then. So it's even the official sample content (since Yamaha owns Steinberg).

And since we talk AWM2/AFM hybrid modes... yes... RCM is possible with HALion. Although not as simple to setup as with the SY77/SY99. The trick is the "Modulation Matrix" and the usage of busses. The advantage here is, that you can use any other sound source as additional modulator. Doesn't matter if it's PCM based, Wavetable based, VA based or even Granular based.

Since the HALion manual is really sparse on that topic, it is a bit of a "hidden feature" for a lot of people. The only real limitation is the 32 slots of the matrix.



TL;DR:
Yes... HALion 7 (FM Zone) can do what SWAY will be able to do. Although not as streamlined, yet indeed way more powerful.

HALion 7 turned into a "Yamaha Super Synth" - an official port/collaboration with Yamaha (again, Yamaha owns Steinberg). Not quite the MONTAGE M ESP, but definitely a MODX/MOTIF Hybrid and then some. Took them many years to get there. It's (thankfully) no longer "just a sampler" that lost ground to Native Instrument's rise with Kontakt 2+.

SWAY will only cover the SY77/TG77/SY99 engine. That is the main selling point - emulating that as closely as possible. Everything else will be bonus.

The idea of RCM sound great on the SY99 but in the real world for me I never found much use for it unless I was using very simple waveforms, as anything complex used a modulator turns into extremely non musical noise and garbage. So you can start with something complex and then filter it down to the point where it's super simple

Have you been posting under another name on the Yamaha Musicians Forum back in 2008 already?

I recently read a very similar statement there.

Is this in any way to be compared?

https://www.tracktion.com/products/f-em

Huh! Teaches me for never properly looking at Tracktion's F.'em. I always shrugged it off as this weird synth amalgamation. I never noticed that it can use samples as additional OSC/Modulator.

From quick looks at the page, and a quick dive into the manual, it sadly can not load SYSEX however. Shame, but considering that the presets and the stock waveforms of the SY77/SY99 are (technically) copyrighted, not surprised either.