SWAY - a synth modeled after the Yamaha SY77

[BBFG#]

Maybe time for you two to get your own thread or room to butt your knobs out?

At this point, I'm more interested in how F'.em and Sway compare. Even though I suspect Sway to "win out" in many respects, I'd still find it more interesting and inspiring for my buy list proposals.

[Uncle E]

See, around these parts we call that a "hit 'n run".

[IvyBirds]

About the RCM thing: if you investigate the official presets you'll see they often use RCM not as a way to introduce a new timbre to the FM element, but as a way to enhance a patch that's primarily based on the AWM element.

Access to a demo version, when?

I have used Halion 7 and can tell you that your experience on a fully programmable VST such as SWAY, may outweigh your FM LAB experience two-fold, IMHO.

If we talk purely FM Lab loaded in HALion Sonic 7, then yes.

If we talk full featured HALion 7, then I will agree to disagree to that statement. You have access to 7 different Zone Types (Synth/VA, Sampler, Granular, Organ, Wavetable, FM and Spectral) that you can modulate with each other to your hearts content (if you wrap your heard around the Modulation Matrix).

The one valid criticism that can be made, is the lack of a proper Oscilloscope and/or standalone FFT (Spectrum Analyzer) inside of HALion. There is one Oscilloscope built in now, yes. But it's a bit lacking on usability. Third party tools are highly recommended, but they will be post VCF and VCA and effects, of course.

You can technically even recreate all AWM2/AFM hybrid setups with HALion 7 -

How? HALion7 can't do 0hz operators it also can't use samples as modulators in the same ways

You post is full of many things that are not accurate

Oh... now I see what other posters in here brought up, and why are they so irritated.


While I didn't dive into the "0 Hz" modulation (since this is just not on my radar, sorry -- and from my understanding, we're not talking 0 Hz samples, but 0 Hz FM operators). I can however confirm that you can use samples as modulators.


Here is a screenshot from a tutorial video from Groove3, showing capabilities of the Modulation Matrix.




This is but a simple example of routing signals into one of the available 16 busses (for the Modulation Matrix), and then that signal from the bus is used to modulate something else. In this particular case, it's the cutoff of the zone that is being edited.

If you would kindly take a closer look at the HALion 7 manual, section Modulation Matrix:

• you will note that the Modulation Sources can be the output from any given zone.
• the "output" is of course post VCF and VCA. In some cases even effects. So the zone is automatically routed to a program output. And with the modulation matrix, you can also route it to a bus (01 to 16)
• the Modulation Matrix destinations are depending on the zone you're applying modulation to. For example, if you use a Wavetable zone, then you can modulate Wavetable 1/2's Pitch, Level, Pan, Filter Shift, etc. If you use a FM zone, you can route it to any or multiple FM Operators in that particular zone, most notably Level, Pitch (there we have our RCM!), and a handful more.

I'm sorry to disappoint you - my post is far from being inaccurate.




However - seeing how the mudslinging continues in this thread, I will back away and not further interact. I neither have the time, nor patience for this on KVR anymore. And the post spamming with "no, you are wrong" is getting annoying.

Awesome in HALion7 I want to take a sample and use it to modulate a 0hz operator how does one do that?

Hint you can't

[Uncle E]

Y'all beginnin' to test my patience.

[BBFG#]

best-bird-deterrent-spike-system-4285163177.jpg

[pekbro]

KVR, not for the squeamish.

[Compyfox]

Folks... the criticism of going OT, while going OT yourself isn't helping. But then again, this is KVR Audio... it has (sadly) always been this way.

Awesome in HALion7 I want to take a sample and use it to modulate a 0hz operator how does one do that?

Hint you can't

I am not interacting with you any further - I did that twice now, and just like with others, you instantly shot down what was written even with links provided to manuals. EvilDragon has HALion 7.x open currently, I don't (I'm not at my studio rig). He may take it from there.

Although for completeness sake:
The Modulation Matrix "adds" modulation to a certain destination. So a 0 Hz operator (destination) with a signal to modulate (source) "adding" to 0 Hz would no longer be 0 Hz. Funny how that works.


Please stop quote-flooding me with an attempt at correcting my "obviously wrong statements". Again, I neither have the time nor patience for that on here anymore.

[IvyBirds]

Folks... the criticism of going OT, while going OT yourself isn't helping. But then again, this is KVR Audio... it has (sadly) always been this way.

Awesome in HALion7 I want to take a sample and use it to modulate a 0hz operator how does one do that?

Hint you can't

I am not interacting with you any further - I did that twice now, and just like with others, you instantly shot down what was written even with links provided to manuals. EvilDragon has HALion 7.x open currently, I don't (I'm not at my studio rig). He may take it from there.

Although for completeness sake:
The Modulation Matrix "adds" modulation to a certain destination. So a 0 Hz operator (destination) with a signal to modulate (source) "adding" to 0 Hz would no longer be 0 Hz. Funny how that works.


Please stop quote-flooding me with an attempt at correcting my "obviously wrong statements". Again, I neither have the time nor patience for that on here anymore.

And when you do that it is not performing FM Synthesis or RCM. It is doing the same as basically an LFO or envelope and will create vibrato effects

This is how the manual describes what happens when you use the Mod Matrix to apply a sample to the pitch parameter of the FM Operator

Screenshot_20250923-161917.jpg

https://www.steinberg.help/r/halion/7.0 ... ons_r.html

You use it for things like vibrato not for RCM type FM Synthesis, it's exactly like how you assign an LFO in the mod matrix in SY77 to the pitch parameter of the FM Operators

All you are doing in your example is using a sample as an LFO it's not acting as a modulator for FM and quite honestly it doesn't really work very well either to get musical results

Are you saying if instead of using a sample you use an LFO as the source with the pitch of an operator as a destination in the matrix rather than creating vibrato you now have a 9th Operator?

[BBFG#]

It's not about going OT, it's about taking it to an extreme of hair splitting and diverting the thread as far as possible from the OP&P.
Comparisons can be very informative. And that aspect has been left behind in favor of who docks who first in the weeds of minutia.

[Compyfox]

Geezuz heist... you (IvyBirds) really need to take a step back and actually please look at manuals and/or try things yourself.

And I say that as Yamaha user for 30-ish years that barely scratched the surface of the tech I have at my disposal, currently in the process of trying "to learn" things from scratch again (and I admit, FM is not my strong suit), towards a self-proclaimed expert on the engines including the recent MONTAGE M (as you claimed you have access to the devices in question).

Throwing a tantrum and posting oversized screenshots doesn't help you in this case. For starters, I'm not blind. And the way how condescending and smug you are towards users in here actually completely undermines what you maybe try to convey. We could have nice conversations, but it looks like that is just impossible.

This will be the absolute last time I will respond to you. After that, I will block you. Instigate further, and I will reach out to the mods. Again, I have neither the time nor patience for this (one of the reasons why I barely visit KVR Audio anymore!).

Take it or leave it.

And when you do that it is not performing FM Synthesis or RCM. It is doing the same as basically an LFO or envelope and will create vibrato effects

<stares at the screen for a moment>

. . . but ...yes. Yes, it is RCM (Synthesis).

You use it for things like vibrato not for RCM type FM Synthesis, it's exactly like how you assign an LFO in the mod matrix in SY77 to the pitch parameter of the FM Operators

All you are doing in your example is using a sample as an LFO it's not acting as a modulator for FM and quite honestly it doesn't really work very well either to get musical results

I am sorry, but I still agree to highly disagree here.

Please read (again) what was written on the Yamaha Musicians forum back in 2008 already. How RCM really works, and how it works best. This post is actually a great summary, a source of information and demystifies that particular "synthesis form".

In fact, please also cross reference with the SY77 and SY99 manual (both page 10 and 11). And in case of the element explanation: AWM (SY77 on page 56, SY99 on page 54 -- notice where the pickup point for "routing to AFM" is) and AFM (SY77 on page 60 and following, SY99 on page 58 and following -- notice where the AWM signal is "routed in")


Here are two charts from that Yamaha Musicians forum post:

"RCM" with AWM (or samples) used as modulator

Code: Select all

AWM---------
           |
           |--- >OP3->OP2->OP1--
           |                    |----->OUTPUT
           |---->OP6->OP5->OP4--

"RCM" with AWM (or samples) used as both modulator and additional sound layer

Code: Select all

AWM------------------------------------->OUTPUT
           |
           |--- >OP3->OP2->OP1--
           |                    |----->OUTPUT
           |---->OP6->OP5->OP4--

I am telling you, both is possible in HALion 7.x. Read: the full suite.

And of course, if you run a full spectrum signal rather than a filtered one as modulator, the output is not musical. Might as well have used a S&H Signal or various Noise sources then. Same goes for any subtractive synthesizer.

But what if I don't want to have something musical, yet something more sound design like?

When was the last time you actively listened to the SY99 RCM presets?
Let me give you a refresher maybe.

Are you saying if instead of using a sample you use an LFO as the source with the pitch of an operator as a destination in the matrix rather than creating vibrato you now have a 9th Operator?

Interpretation. Or misunderstanding due to (possible) language barriers.

I clearly told you how things work in HALion 7.x.


As a refresher to your (possible) short term memory:

• use a Sample zone
• you use the Modulation Matrix of that sample zone and send the Output (again, post DCF and DCA... or in easy to follow terms: after the zone's filter and the amplifier section!) to an available Bus (Bus 01 to 16), e.g. Bus 01
• use a FM zone
• you use the Modulation Matrix of that FM zone to route the signal from the Bus you've used from the Sample zone (e.g. Bus 01) into a destination you want (e.g. FM Operator 1-8 Pitch => FM, or FM Operator 1-8 Level => AM -- note that we are not talking LFO here, but a very complex signal higher than 150 Hz "slow oscillation")
• dial in the modulation depth to taste
• if you don't want the Sample zone to be heard on the program output, just mute it. If you want to use it as additional "layer" to your FM sound, keep it unmuted

I don't know what else to tell you, but that is RCM (synthesis).

I've tried it the other night, it works exactly like that.



If you were to look beyond your blinders for a moment, and check that in HALion 7.x yourself, you could maybe tone it down a notch and stop trying to scream from the top of your lungs that we other users in here are "completely wrong" (in your opinion).

Thank you!

[Compyfox]

Comparisons can be very informative. And that aspect has been left behind in favor of who docks who first in the weeds of minutia.

I was about to answer your question from an outsider's perspective. Unfortunately the "hair splitting" happened, indeed.




Personal opinion, while also throwing Steinberg/Yamaha and UVI in here...

At this point, I'm more interested in how F'.em and Sway compare. Even though I suspect Sway to "win out" in many respects, I'd still find it more interesting and inspiring for my buy list proposals.

Totally different beasts for different tasks:

• Sheaf's SWAY will focus on recreating the SY77/TG77 (and to an extend even the SY99) as accurately as possible. Including (from what can be gathered from the official page) SYSEX loading and possible "Waverom Add-On" loading capabilities.
  .
• Tracktion F'em takes the concept of the SY99 and spins it way further. It can (apparently) not load SYSEX from the old devices, and the bundled sample content is obviously not Yamaha based. It's FM Synthesis on steroids.
  .
• Steinberg/Yamaha FM Lab (with HALion Sonic 7 as "Player") is just plain FM Synthesis up until the most recent version of FM-X (MODX and MONTAGE). Can import SYSEX from various devices (DX7 and TX81z, but users claimed to be able to import more, e.g. V50 or DX100)
  .
• Steinberg/Yamaha HALion 7 can be considered to be the official port of AWM2 and FM technology. Although you can not load SY77/TG77 or SY99 SYSEX. You can however recreate presets in the FM Zone, do AWM2/AFM hybrid setups with the zone layering option from HALion and then some. HALion 7 is no longer a sampler, it's a workstation. Something in between a MOTIF/MODX hybrid, but still different enough from the MONTAGE M ESP.
  .
• and for completeness sake: UVI Falcon can be seen like HALion 7 - a powerful workstation. The feature set is similar even. In fact, some of the Steinberg forum users mention that Steinberg tries to play "catch-up" with UVI Falcon. And comparing both side by side, yes... HALion looses out on "zone variety", some modulation options and definitely post FX. However, Falcon can't do more than 4 OP FM synthesis (neither SYSEX import), and doesn't feature/use Yamaha content. Maybe it can do more with routing and/or using audio feeds as modulators like HALion. But I don't have UVI Falcon at my disposal and have only skimmed through the Falcon manual.

Hope that helps as food for thought...

[Uncle E]

What we've got here is failure to communicate.

[oscillik]

why do they call it oven when you of in the cold food of out hot eat the food

[kritikon]

What we've got here is failure to communicate.

No, unfortunately it's a very specific and intentional type of trolling.

[Vortifex]

I heard there was a cool musician called Sheaf making a cool plugin called Sway