SWAY - a synth modeled after the Yamaha SY77

[sheaf]

i would like to submit some... not mandatory wish, because i know this could cause stabilities problems with the new VST3 standard wich maybe lost some MIDI possibilities... but it exists some VST synthetisers which are multitimbrals, dealing with the 16 MIDI channels.

I don't want to rule it out, but to be honest I don't think I'll get around to implementing multi timbral mode, even in the future. In the modern DAW setup it's not really useful anymore, so it would mostly be about being able to load the sysex files with multitimbral data. It just seems like too much effort for a very small reward.

Just wonder why you have to make preset sounds, when you can load the original yamaha sounds via sysex?

I think there will be a lot of people who want to demo it to see what it's capable of, but who don't necessarily feel like going on a sysex hunting expedition first. I'm not going to make a huge collection, but there needs to be a good varied set that impresses people enough to want to go out and find more sounds on the internet.

It's also just part of testing. Somehow I uncovered a lot of issues during real world usage that I never did while focusing on just testing its functionality. I also want to become really good at programming it too!

[ghettosynth]

This seems like the right focus to me. Homage without slavish devotion to cloning all of the details that reflect the zeitgeist of the past. I suspect that for most of us the SY is not a flagship anymore so much as it is an interesting sound source that combines FM and samples in an interesting way, that is, the SY way, without the tedium of the giant workstations, e.g., Hallion and friends.

[planetearth]

i would like to submit some... not mandatory wish, because i know this could cause stabilities problems with the new VST3 standard wich maybe lost some MIDI possibilities... but it exists some VST synthetisers which are multitimbrals, dealing with the 16 MIDI channels.
For example this DSP56300 emulator synth emulates the "Access Virus" hardware numeric synth, and it is MIDI multitimbral, as seen on this screen picture :
https://dsp56300.wordpress.com/wp-conte ... mage-2.png
( the original web site :
https://dsp56300.wordpress.com/
)
i don't know if, maybe much later, years, This feature could be implemented on SWAY, so that it could load the "multi" sys ex, and having some equivalant of the display...
maybe VST3 is limited to ONE instrument per VST slot.

As @EvilDragon suggests, loading another instance of this plug-in would give you the same abilities as a multi-timbral version of the synth. In fact, it would give you more than having a multi-timbral version of the synth, because you could route each MIDI/audio part to anything else, whether it was in the synth (like on-board effects) or not. And unless this plug-in is multi-processor aware, it won't spread the instruments and their internal processing across multiple cores on your computer. Loading one large, multi-timbral setup could cause performance issues, since it would all be processed on one CPU core (which was probably already allocated to do something else important when you loaded this synth).

Steve

[Compyfox]

The "process only on one CPU core" is a bit of a myth, especially in this day and age.


Multi-Timbral VSTi can have multiple outputs per MIDI channel. However, if it's supposed to be an accurate emulation of something, then you may only have one stereo output, or up to 3, maybe 4, certainly not 16.

As an example:

• the Roland SC-88 was available in two versions: stereo out and 2x stereo out (rack/Pro variant). Roland Corp decided to only have a stereo output on their VSTi of the SC-880 -- but that VSTi is now no longer available yet again. Zenology would have actually made sense to turn multi-timbral, or the XV5080 rack port. Sadly it's one instance per sound (mono-timbral)
  .
• the Motorola Emulators are based upon the actual hardware. So 3 stereo outputs (1 main, 2 sub) for the microQ for example.
  .
• If we look at Waldorf themselves, then the Attack VSTi (Edition v2 Variant) has 6 stereo outputs, just like the hardware (also 6 outputs)
  .
• The Korg M1 VSTi has 2 stereo output (just like the hardware, sans the stereo headphone out). I do not know how many outputs the bigger workstations got.
  .
• Plogue's chipsynth OPS7 (aka, their more-than-bit-accurate DX7 clone) is technically a dual-layer (dual-timbral) synth, yet only has a stereo output.
  .
• the list goes on

Then there is also the topic of "voices" (or polyphony).

The SY77/TY77 for example bleeds voices significantly the more parallel engines (layers) you use. If you use a preset with 4 layers, then the synth drops from 32 voices down to 8. And even though the synth dynamically allocated free voices to other MIDI channels, things can be bottlenecked quite quickly.

The same applies to the Waldorf microQ. The non expanded version can only do 25 voices (not a typo). Yet you can have up to 16 parts (MIDI Channels). Just as another example. And it's been a while that I checked out the emulator, but it definitely had that limitation. And since the CPU usage of initial versions were super high, this was the way to go. Or what you were used to from the OG hardware.



It really depends on what the devs provide to the user. In some cases, it makes sense to keep things original. In others, absolutely not.

I would love to have accuracy and then still decide to just use one instance per one sound. That is the beauty of DAW - you're not limited to the amount of hardware modules you have.


On the other hand, and something that is barely brought up, there are limitations on how many instruments you can load inside your DAW. I am not talking about CPU, or in cases of Akai only allowing to load one instance of MPC Beats/MPC Software (I'm serious!)...

Since it's my main DAW of choice - Cubase for example can only have 64 "Rack Instruments" (which was the old route to go pre "Track Instruments", and is still the preferred method for multi-timbral instruments e.g. Kontakt, HALion, other ROMplers with multiple outputs). Track Instruments were also limited until a couple of years ago (I seem to remember it being 32 tracks, then 64, now it's "unlimited"). Some other DAW may have similar limitations. In this case, a multi-timbral VSTi would be more sensible if you struggle on that end. But then we jump back to the topic of available voices, and whether or not the developers allowed to have more than what the actual hardware could do.


There are benefits and drawbacks to everything.


Some more food for thought.

[planetearth]

I agree with almost everything you have there, but I was speaking more to modern ROMplers/synths like Kontakt, SampleTank, UVI Workstation, and others. By the devs' own admissions, these aren't multi-core aware, and won't split the load across multiple cores or threads. This makes me appreciate E-MU's Emulator X plug-ins from over two decades ago, which could harness the power of additional cores and threads.

Like you, I don't know what Roland has been thinking with their plug-ins. The JV-1080 and XV-5080 definitely should be multi-timbral (with multiple outputs), just like the hardware. Even if they're not multi-processor aware, people who have original sets spanning a few instruments and channels might find it easier to re-create the sounds they want. (As a side note, I believe the Korg M1 plug-in allows up to 4 outputs, like the original hardware, though I think that's what you're also saying. That said, I still find Korg's rather clueless abbreviation for "Assignable pedal" ("Ass. Pedal") plastered on the back of the every M1 synth to be humorous.)

And yes, "there are benefits and drawbacks to everything". Like pretty much everyone on KVR Audio, I appreciate the work independent developers (like @Sheaf) do to make synths as close to the hardware as possible, while balancing trade-offs with what people today expect from a synth. You can't always please everyone. (Or, if you've been reading the "Roland Cloud" thread here, you may get the impression that you can't please anyone.)

Steve

[IvyBirds]

.
[*]Plogue's chipsynth OPS7 (aka, their more-than-bit-accurate DX7 clone) is technically a dual-layer (dual-timbral) synth, yet only has a stereo output.

The DX7 had a mono output. Plogue OPS7 is essentially like running two DX7s with one on layer A and the other on Layer B if you choose to use layer B. So you can run the same patch on both layers and detune them, then have them panned hard right and left like it's a TX812. In doing so you get a phenomenal cool sounding chorus effect. (And you can run 4 instances to emulate the TX816 using a bus in your DAW) There is even a detune knob to accomplish just this in the global settings.

Or you can run two different patches on each layer to emulate layering a DX7 with a TX7 module (both had mono outputs) in into two mono busses in your DAW of choice by hard panning each layer just like you were using an analog mixer with them back in 1984

There is no reason for a bit accurate DX7 emulator to have more than a single stereo output even when running in bi-timbral mode as it wasn't a stereo synth to begin with.

[IvyBirds]

For example this DSP56300 emulator synth emulates the "Access Virus" hardware numeric synth, and it is MIDI multitimbral, as seen on this screen picture :

https://dsp56300.wordpress.com/wp-conte ... mage-2.png

Only it's not emulating the Virus it's running the exact firmware that the virus ran warts and all. What it's emulating is the Motorola Chip that firmware ran on

Since they didn't emulate the actual synth in a modern plugin and instead are running the exact firmware it is going to have every feature that synth had, even those that don't make much sense in 2025

Sway isn't running the SY77 firmware, it's new code made for modern DAW based workflows

[Compyfox]

I'd miss something in the thread, if one wouldn't be "corrected" by "the bird".


While I didn't talk about the DX7 hardware -- which is completely my fault, I guess -- the DX7 clone by Plogue does come with sadly only one stereo out, because of the Layer capability, plus the additional effects that the DX7 didn't have. Just as a sidenote.

However, I better be quiet now, because actually it's not an accurate DX7 in "extended mode" anymore, because here it also has waveforms of the TX81Z and OPL3, plus the Layer Mode of the "just a handful existing" DX1 and DX5, and then some.

I don't want to be scolded again on how wrong I am.

And I better also not bring up the TX81Z "clone" by Sonicbits.


Also... it doesn't matter if the Motorola chipset emulation is "running the firmware of device ABC" (which is... mostly true, but there is a bit more involved than that). The point here is, that the devices were multi-timbral. And some of the internal interaction of these devices would be different than a mere mono-timbral VSTi. That is the main point here.


But thanks for your input.

[EvilDragon]

I agree with almost everything you have there, but I was speaking more to modern ROMplers/synths like Kontakt, SampleTank, UVI Workstation, and others. By the devs' own admissions, these aren't multi-core aware

Kontakt IS multicore aware, up to 16 cores, and has been for ages (since Kontakt 3 or so).

[soundman007]

As a side note, I believe the Korg M1 plug-in allows up to 4 outputs, like the original hardware, though I think that's what you're also saying.

Actually it has 8 stereo outputs.

[IvyBirds]

I'd miss something in the thread, if one wouldn't be "corrected" by "the bird".


While I didn't talk about the DX7 hardware -- which is completely my fault, I guess -- the DX7 clone by Plogue does come with sadly only one stereo out, because of the Layer capability, plus the additional effects that the DX7 didn't have. Just as a sidenote.

However, I better be quiet now, because actually it's not an accurate DX7 in "extended mode" anymore, because here it also has waveforms of the TX81Z and OPL3, plus the Layer Mode of the "just a handful existing" DX1 and DX5, and then some.

I don't want to be scolded again on how wrong I am.

And I better also not bring up the TX81Z "clone" by Sonicbits.


Also... it doesn't matter if the Motorola chipset emulation is "running the firmware of device ABC" (which is... mostly true, but there is a bit more involved than that). The point here is, that the devices were multi-timbral. And some of the internal interaction of these devices would be different than a mere mono-timbral VSTi. That is the main point here.


But thanks for your input.

Wow it's amazing how in a thread about Sway you constantly want to talk about other Synth Plugins and how you think they are superior to Sway even if they are a VA and have nothing in common with Sway or the SY77

However there is no need for multi-timbral plugins to have more than a stereo output in a DAW based modern workflow as you can load up as many instances of that plugin as you want for as many timbres as you want. This will allow your DAW to manage core loads more efficiently and make for an easier more streamlined workflow anyway

[Teksonik]

Can I join in on the geekery? Oh goodie goodie.

Even A.I. gets it:

"The Yamaha SY77 is a multitimbral music workstation, capable of producing 16 different voices simultaneously, making it a powerful tool for layering sounds".

Screw layering different instances of the same synth, I want everything contained in one powerful synth in one patch. I don't want silly workarounds. It's 2025 not 2005 when CPU demand was an issue.

Hell, if you're going to be layering synths as a workaround why not just load a couple of instances of Dexed, a couple of free soundfonts or something like the Korg Triton and be done with it? I've been watching a lot of SY77 videos and all of the sounds I've heard it do could be emulated to a high degree with that combination.

To be honest the more I listen to the SY77 the less impressed I become. Its quality and range of sounds don't hold up all that well to what we have at our fingertips these days but then that could be said about many old synths.

I'd love an Ensoniq VFX emulation since I used to own one but again to be honest I could do the types of sound it can make at a higher fidelity with some of the other synths in my collection. There's no practical reason to have one, only a nostalgic reason.

So here's what I propose, since SWAY will not be multitimbral and will not have the factory waverom (before anyone starts typing, if you advocate for the illegitimate procurement of those samples then you should be banned) lets just stop mentioning SWAY and the SY77 in the same breath and stop any association at all.

Let's just wait until the demo version drops and judge SWAY on how it sounds by itself. Will the quality and range of sounds it can make be worth the asking price? It's the only question that really matters.

I will certainly try the demo when it's released to answer that question for myself. I don't care if it sounds like the SY77 or not and in fact I kind of hope it doesn't. Will I like the sounds it can make? Everything else is irrelevant.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled nerd fest and no Ivybirds, I'm not going to engage you in an endless and pointless debate. I'd rather french kiss a rattlesnake. Now that my ears are rested I'm going back in and continue to enjoy playing the magnificent modern synths I have at my disposal and let the past fade away.

[JamminFool]

[...] and no Ivybirds, I'm not going to engage you in an endless and pointless debate. I'd rather french kiss a rattlesnake.

[seafire]

I'm going back in and continue to enjoy playing the magnificent modern synths I have at my disposal and let the past fade away.

Presumably you don't use any emulations of vintage synths?

[Uncle E]

Let's just wait until the demo version drops and judge SWAY on how it sounds by itself. Will the quality and range of sounds it can make be worth the asking price? It's the only question that really matters.

Away with you, blasphemer!