Proxima - Synapse Audio

[pchase]

I've never used a Prophet 600 before. (I'd always heard the modulation stepping was atrocious.) If a Prophet 600 is anything like Proxima, it sounds very, very different from a Prophet 5 or Pro-1. The filter saturation is totally different. Prophet 5 and Pro-1 barely saturate at all, and can pile up huge resonance. Proxima starts saturating right away, and it has a really nice effect on the higher frequencies without sounding like crackling.

Yes, that's all accurate to the real one.

Will it be on the shop

[zerocrossing]

If what is offered is a VST replacement for a basic analog poly,

Not a basic analog poly.

the price has to take into account the cost of hardware poly synths AND the cost of "much more capable" flagship synths (of which pretty much everyone has one).

You are discounting the fact that the flagship synths that you are talking about are not great at emulating analog synths, even with their analog modeled filters and whatnot. That isn't really a dig against them, as they're not supposed to be. Having that specific type of sound of this synth, which to me sounds really good, may or may not be attractive to you, and if it's not, move on. You can get in the neighborhood of those types of vintage analog sounds with modern flagship synths, and if you are happy enough with them, then good for you. I personally like to get that vintage vibe and have more features to make things a bit more interesting than the original hardware. That's why this one is of interest to me, but it's obviously not to you.

[BONES]

Just a little under half of what I paid for a BRO-800 on sale?

A label printer? That's a weird comparison. But here's the thing, I paid $1200 for an Elektron Analog Keys which I never used live and never used on any song on any album. OTOH, over the past couple of years I have used Proxima on around 20 songs, so direct cost comparisons don't really make any sense. In terms of bang for your buck, Proxima is worth every penny they are asking for it.

To be fair, I've never paid as much as they are asking for Proxima for any synth I own - my usual limit is $100, which I have gone over a couple of times, but $119 is the most I've ever paid for anything. So I kind of get but, at the same time, I reckon this one would be worth going over my limit for more than any of the others I've broken it for.

The reason I don't just buy it right away is that, like Dune 3, it requires challenge-response activation and there are a limited number of activation slots. Meaning that it will eventually stop working some day in the future.

What? All Synapse synths use a serial no. Every one of their products I own - and I own all of them, all the way back to Orion - still install and load just fine. I've probably installed DUNE on a dozen different computers over the years, and often it's been installed on 3 or 4 at once, and it's never been a problem. And you don't need internet access to use them, either, they work perfectly on stage with Flight Mode turned on. You can go to your Synapse service area and grab the serial no. again and again and it will always work. There is nothing at all to be concerned about.

All instruments are personal choices - I would never play spoons, but I’m sure there’s some people who love them. Heh. That caveat aside, my current favorite VA plugins are: MultiPoly, OB-E, Model 84, Twin3, Repro-1. I have a few others that are, to me, sonically on the same level as Proxima, such as: Polysix, MiniSynx (better sound worse UI), Phoscyon, J-8, Axxess. Leaving out crossovers like Hive2 and Serum2, etc.

I think any of those synths would struggle to do things Proxima does effortlessly. It's maybe a tiny bit like Atomika - it's its own thing with a naturally huge sound. The good thing about a subtractive synth with a huge sound is that it's easy to filter it down to get something else. OTOH, it requires more effort to get a huge sound from a synth that doesn't really have it in its own. The Model D is the perfect example of this; despite its horrible filter, it is still well loved because the oscillator sound is so huge.

[vitocorleone123]

Just a little under half of what I paid for a BRO-800 on sale?

A label printer? That's a weird comparison. But here's the thing, I paid $1200 for an Elektron Analog Keys which I never used live and never used on any song on any album. OTOH, over the past couple of years I have used Proxima on around 20 songs, so direct cost comparisons don't really make any sense. In terms of bang for your buck, Proxima is worth every penny they are asking for it.

To be fair, I've never paid as much as they are asking for Proxima for any synth I own - my usual limit is $100, which I have gone over a couple of times, but $119 is the most I've ever paid for anything. So I kind of get but, at the same time, I reckon this one would be worth going over my limit for more than any of the others I've broken it for.

The reason I don't just buy it right away is that, like Dune 3, it requires challenge-response activation and there are a limited number of activation slots. Meaning that it will eventually stop working some day in the future.

What? All Synapse synths use a serial no. Every one of their products I own - and I own all of them, all the way back to Orion - still install and load just fine. I've probably installed DUNE on a dozen different computers over the years, and often it's been installed on 3 or 4 at once, and it's never been a problem. And you don't need internet access to use them, either, they work perfectly on stage with Flight Mode turned on. You can go to your Synapse service area and grab the serial no. again and again and it will always work. There is nothing at all to be concerned about.

All instruments are personal choices - I would never play spoons, but I’m sure there’s some people who love them. Heh. That caveat aside, my current favorite VA plugins are: MultiPoly, OB-E, Model 84, Twin3, Repro-1. I have a few others that are, to me, sonically on the same level as Proxima, such as: Polysix, MiniSynx (better sound worse UI), Phoscyon, J-8, Axxess. Leaving out crossovers like Hive2 and Serum2, etc.

I think any of those synths would struggle to do things Proxima does effortlessly. It's maybe a tiny bit like Atomika - it's its own thing with a naturally huge sound. The good thing about a subtractive synth with a huge sound is that it's easy to filter it down to get something else. OTOH, it requires more effort to get a huge sound from a synth that doesn't really have it in its own. The Model D is the perfect example of this; despite its horrible filter, it is still well loved because the oscillator sound is so huge.

I’ve used Proxima more. The 20min limit is still kinda silly.

I’d say the sound is about as good as the TAL J8 or a touch better - sometimes better to me sometimes about the same. The J8 can sound much bigger with the dual layer, but lacks the easy modulation of Proxima. OB-E is better than both and bigger than both but, again, lacks the modulation. Model 84 has more character but lacks in every other department. Twin3 sounds more like hardware to me and has a lot of modulation but isn’t as straightforward. MultiPoly easily sounds as good or better, can be massive with 4 layers, but isn’t nearly as straightforward or good looking - recently on sale for $99. Etc.

All in all, I find Proxima a very good VA. It would be an easy recommendation to demo at $99. At list price it wouldn’t be at the top of my list to suggest. I plan to continue using the demo through the weekend.

[BONES]

The only capability I'm concerned about with a Prophet 600 recreation is "can it do what a Prophet 600 does (or more broadly, can it replace any simple analog polysynth).

Are you seriously suggesting that a synth that sounds great and has a broad sonic palette is less worthwhile than a one-trick pony? That is so narrow-minded, so utterly lacking in creative vision, that I feel really sorry for you. It must be so frustrating trying to make good music when your brain is holding you back like this.

I'm sure this is a fine alternative but given a hardware poly synth (BRO-800) I paid $280 for and another (Nymphes) that I paid $300 for (used), $140 for an a VST recreation is well beyond consideration IMO.

Again, there is no equivalence here. For example, you can buy Proxima once and use it on 30 tracks in a single composition, n the studio and on stage, effortlessly. How much would 30 label makers cost you? (It's what came up when I searched for "BRO-800.)

If I want more capabilities than an analog poly, I'll use Serum/Pigments/etc. that are vastly "more capable" than this. (Serum cost $199 initially I believe and Pigments was $89.)

Fine if you've got all the time in the world to patch things like that but if workflow is important, Proxima beats Pigments and Serum, hands down. How, for example, would go about destabilsiing the voices in Pigments to get exactly the sound you want, the way you can in Proxima?

Again: "more capable" of what? Those two words are meaningless in isolation.

But perfectly obvious in the context of this discussion.

So it adds a bunch of features that are already covered by deeper synths, right.

Wrong. See my example above.

That was the point. You're saying "more capable" when you mean "has more stuff."

That's not what he said and I think you know that. It is a simple fact that Proxima is more capable than any Behringer hardware synth, and particularly the one you're talking about. And if you honestly believe there is no gap between a simple analogue hardware synth and Serum, you're a clueless idiot.

Both Serum and Pigments have analog modeled filters, both have "vintage knob" behaviors emulating analog inaccuracies, both have the full complement of analog waveforms present here.

But they don't sound as good as Proxima without a lot of work. In fact, I think Pigments sounds very ordinary and we stopped using it 6 or 7 years ago.

Which is fine - again, what I have referred to is why the price is a dissuasion to me. If what is offered is a VST replacement for a basic analog poly, the price has to take into account the cost of hardware poly synths AND the cost of "much more capable" flagship synths (of which pretty much everyone has one).

Again, there is a massive gap between those two things. What if you need more voices than your hardware can manage but you don't want to have to deal with the complexity of an ubersynth? I'd take a dozen well chosen simple synths over any one ubersynth. I'd say that in my work, I probably create a dozen "simple" synth parts, mostly emulation like bx_oberhausen, Atomika and Proxima, for every part I create with an ubersynth like DUNE, DS_Thorn or Hive. The simpler instruments are just so much easier/faster to work with.

As the value of $X,XXX hardware must be considered relative to a world with excellent software for $XXX, $XXX software must be looked at in terms of what's available in hardware for $XXX or software for $XX.

No, it doesn't work like that at all. It's not how much it costs, it what you get for your money and the simple reality is that you get much, much more in software, for much, much less money. Even simple things, like the ability to play two different instances of the plugin at once, make that completely obvious.

Why would I sell a perfectly capable synth that sounds excellent?

Why would you support a company that steals from other, far more talented, engineers? (This is a serious issue for me. It's one thing to re-create something like the Wasp that's been out pf production for decades, but when companies like Korg do the right thing and get the original companies/engineers on board to recreate their classics, I couldn't possibly even think about supporting a company like Behringer.)

[miloszz]

Not a basic analog poly.

It absolutely is. Even the added sound generation features consist of a mod matrix, a little extra modulation and a sequencer. (I consider the added effects a wash at best, I’m just going to kill them on presets.)

You are discounting the fact that the flagship synths that you are talking about are not great at emulating analog synths, even with their analog modeled filters and whatnot.

They are absolutely fine at VA work. The building blocks of Pigments are the building blocks of all Arturia’s stuff.

That's why this one is of interest to me, but it's obviously not to you.

There is a place for simple and nice synths - I prefer them even. Synapse just isn’t putting a price tag on this that makes sense with what it offers.

[tumface]

What? All Synapse synths use a serial no. Every one of their products I own - and I own all of them, all the way back to Orion - still install and load just fine. I've probably installed DUNE on a dozen different computers over the years, and often it's been installed on 3 or 4 at once, and it's never been a problem. And you don't need internet access to use them, either, they work perfectly on stage with Flight Mode turned on. You can go to your Synapse service area and grab the serial no. again and again and it will always work. There is nothing at all to be concerned about.

This is not correct. The Synapse Audio plugins require challenge-response with Synapse Audio's servers. You are limited to 3 activations per plugin, and once activated on a machine, you can't deactivate it on your own. Presumably, if you email support and ask, they will give you additional activations.

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I never said that the plugins don't work on stage with no internet connection after you've already activated them. Once you've activated them, they don't need to talk to the internet anymore. (And, you can do an indirect online "offline" activation by using a second computer. Though, it requires at least some kind of internet connection and Synapse Audio's servers still need to be running, and you need to have free activation slots.) The problem is that this system will eventually not work at some point in the future, and then you won't be able to install the software anymore. I know lots of people are fine with that. I'm sometimes OK with it, in a limited fashion. I've been burned multiple times by companies much larger and with more resources shutting down their activation servers. So, that's why I'm very cautious about buying into software that requires this. I hesitate to add any of these failure points into my toolkit.

Sorry, I don't want to derail this thread into activation and licensing talk, but I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't lying or getting anything wrong in my post. I'm really careful to check these sorts of things.

[[nx]]

Been playing with the demo for a bit. I have to say, the FX are ok, but the core synth sounds incredible. Definitely on my wishlist for the future. Great job Synapse.

[zerocrossing]

Not a basic analog poly.

It absolutely is. Even the added sound generation features consist of a mod matrix, a little extra modulation and a sequencer. (I consider the added effects a wash at best, I’m just going to kill them on presets.)

I'm going to stop you right there, because "basic analog polys" do not have mod matrices. Not here, on Earth-1218, but maybe you're from somewhere else in the multiverse.

[miloszz]

I'm going to stop you right there, because "basic analog polys" do not have mod matrices. Not here, on Earth-1218, but maybe you're from somewhere else in the multiverse.

Oh for the love of god, it's a list of sources and destinations. This is not mind blowing work. The Sequential Pro One (1982) has a mod matrix.

This VST will forever remain two VA oscillators into a single filter with some modulation (to which there are, as ever, limits of usefulness). No wavetables, no samples, no granular, no wavefolding, no exotic filter types, not even complicated envelopes, no user-definable envelope shapes, no etc. etc. etc. - it's a basic analog poly.

Which is, again, fine and often preferable. But it is what it is.

I paid $45 for GForce OB-1, which is a two VA oscillator into a single filter with an above-average amount of modulation (four macro slots, the XADSR, XLFO plus all the other routings, if not a page that says MOD MATRIX), sequencer and some effects that are also turned off and locked as soon as the synth is launched. Also has a better implementation of the vintage knob concept.

[djanthonyw]

At the end of the day the sound is what matters. Basic in features doesn't mean basic in sound. I'll take a realistic analog synth emulation with the most basic features over a synth that has all the features one could ask for that sounds sterile and lifeless.

[tumface]

The Sequential Pro One (1982) has a mod matrix.

No, it doesn't. It has 3 fixed routings that can be enabled or disabled. It's the opposite of a mod matrix. And it's not a poly synth. I think the only worse example that could have been picked would be a Minimoog.

The first poly synth with a mod matrix was the Oberheim Xpander from 1984, which cost many times more than a Pro-One and which nobody has ever considered to be a basic analog poly.

[Sonic Illusions]

Gemini:
Yes, the 1982 Sequential Pro-One features a comprehensive modulation matrix that allows users to route sources like the filter envelope, LFO, and a second oscillator to various destinations including oscillator pitch and pulse width, and the filter. This matrix was a standout feature that contributed to its reputation for versatile sound design, distinguishing it from other monophonic synthesizers of the era.
Modulation matrix details:
Sources: The modulation sources available in the matrix are the filter envelope, the low-frequency oscillator (LFO), and the second oscillator (OSC B).
Destinations: These sources can be routed to modulate several parameters, including:
Oscillator A frequency
Oscillator A pulse width
Oscillator B frequency
Oscillator B pulse width
Filter cutoff frequency
Routing flexibility: The matrix allows for complex sound design by enabling the use of multiple modulation routings at the same time.
Performance controls: The modulation can be controlled directly via the performance wheel, which allows for real-time adjustments to the effect.

[Sonic Illusions]

Nvr

[miloszz]

No, it doesn't. It has a small fixed list of routings that can be enabled or disabled. It's the opposite of a mod matrix.

That's a mod matrix. Nothing about the phrase mod matrix demands completely unlimited routings - even the Proxima does not allow you to route anything to anything - we have not yet reached the era of Serge VSTs.

And it's not a poly synth.

Yes, that was the point. A mono synth from 43 years ago has a mod matrix.

The first poly synth with a mod matrix was the Oberheim Xpander from 1984, which cost many times more than a Pro-One and which nobody has ever considered to be a basic analog poly.

The Xpander is a basic analog poly. It's sound generation runs VCO>VCF>Output. It has flexibility in modulation, but it is still a basic subtractive analog poly synth.