TAL releases TAL-EQ

[TechHaus]

Linux user here.

Honestly, the rebellion against this type of copy protection in this thread did push me away from the purchase (and a purchase of the reverb, as well) So, good job, fellas?

I almost bought TAL Sampler when I was buying for my Linux rig, but ended up with Renoise Redux. TAL Sampler rock, though. Fast workflow. But I can talk myself out of lust...

Sorry to add more negativity or whatever to the thread instead of an opinion about the actual plugin.

[bnz]

Haven't followed the whole discussion. But the main argument against challenge response is usually what happens when the author goes out of business, dies or whatever. I just pasted my license code into TAL-DAC on my Fedora laptop which was disconnected from Wifi and it unlocked just fine?

[audiojunkie]

Linux user here.

Honestly, the rebellion against this type of copy protection in this thread did push me away from the purchase (and a purchase of the reverb, as well) So, good job, fellas?

I almost bought TAL Sampler when I was buying for my Linux rig, but ended up with Renoise Redux. TAL Sampler rock, though. Fast workflow. But I can talk myself out of lust...

Sorry to add more negativity or whatever to the thread instead of an opinion about the actual plugin.

I have Tal-Sampler, and I love it a lot. However, I'm (somewhat) patiently waiting for Shortcircuit-XT to replace Tal-Sampler (I may need to buy Redux). I maintain a personal list of favorite Linux plugins, and I admittedly have a few plugins that I bought at one point or another that used C/R. I've been replacing them as I find good replacements that have equivalent quality. I've now replaced DiscoDSP products (their Linux plugins use C/R nowadays).

These are the licensed Linux plugins I've recently replaced:

TX16Wx Sampler (C/R)
TAL-Sampler (C/R)
TAL-Drum (C/R)
Bliss Sampler (C/R)

--------------------

For those who may be interested, Here are some plugins that I highly recommend. They (mostly) support all three major OSes, and none use C/R:

Diva
Hive 2
Repro 1 & 5
AudioThing JUNE
U-he Zebra 3 (coming soon)
Surge-XT
Audio Damage Quanta 2
Cardinal
Shortcircuit-XT (coming........soon-ish....I hope)
Chipsynth OPS7
Apisonic Audio - Speedrum 2
Sforzando
Sfizz-UI
Decent Sampler
Fluida
JC303
Odin 2
OB-Xf
Guitarix.vst
NeuralRack
Uhbik 2
U-he Colour Copy
Audio Damage EOS 2
Audio Damage Circa
Linux Studio Plugins suite
Airwindows Consolidated
Surge-XT Effects
Dragonfly Reverbs
floe-audio/Floe
X42 Plugins
LibreArp
Mverb
tiagolr/gate12
tiagolr/time12
tiagolr/filtr
tiagolr/Reevr
TAL-Filter
Ildaeil
prof-spock/FluidSynthPlugin
Yoshimi
GxPlugins.lv2
ToneTwist Plugs
Dexed
Aether Reverb
CloudReverb
Fors - Sala
Vitalium-verb

My to be purchased list:

Sinevibes - Hollow (Vast Space Reverb)
Sinevibes - Luminance v2 (Shimmer Reverb)
Sinevibes - Albedo (Granular Cloud Reverb)
Auburn Sounds - Selene (Reverb)

Anyone who thinks they can't have a fully professional set of Linux tools that also don't use Challenge Response can look to this list as proof that you can.

[jamcat]

And afaik his software remains not fully cracked to this day.

Come on. Why pretend? Even I know that isn't true.

[audiojunkie]

And afaik his software remains not fully cracked to this day.

Come on. Why pretend? Even I know that isn't true.

Agreed. I don't think there is anything that hasn't been successfully hacked at some point or another. Even U-he's stuff has been hacked, by his own admission. However, his copy protection kept his software protected long enough to get the majority of the new sales (which is where the majority of money is made), and he updates his protection with each release, which keeps the pirates at bay.

[jamcat]

That no longer holds true.

With TAL's new system, at least each update needs to be cracked, which limits the speed and scale of the distribution. With a simple serial, once there is a successful keygen, pirates have instant access to every update direct from the developer's website, and dissemination only increases over time and with each update. u-he will have to build a completely new system and cancel all existing serial numbers to regain control over his IP again.

[audiojunkie]

That no longer holds true.

With TAL's new system, at least each update needs to be cracked, which limits the speed and scale of the dissemination. With a simple serial, once there is a successful keygen, pirates have instant access to every update direct from the developer's website. u-he will have to build a completely new system and cancel all existing serial numbers to regain control over his IP now.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but please post links so that I can read about what you are saying.

If it really gets to this point, keyfiles should increase the difficulty an order of magnitude further.

[audiojunkie]

When it comes right down to it, developers just need to meet the following requirements to make honest users happy:

Provide a copy protection method that allows a user to take an install file of a plugin, a keyfile, and be able to install it onto a new computer and have it run without problems, even if the company no longer exists. This is the key to making us happy.

[jamcat]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but please post links so that I can read about what you are saying.

I'm not going to do that. This discussion is already outside of KVR's comfort zone.

I'm just saying that Patrick has real legitimate reasons to have changed his copy-protection scheme. It's his business and his livelihood. He obviously looked at the data and made an informed decision that resulted in a net positive for his sales.

[Caine123]

That no longer holds true.

With TAL's new system, at least each update needs to be cracked, which limits the speed and scale of the distribution. With a simple serial, once there is a successful keygen, pirates have instant access to every update direct from the developer's website, and dissemination only increases over time and with each update. u-he will have to build a completely new system and cancel all existing serial numbers to regain control over his IP again.

i really dunno if people who use warez get halted by new copy protection, if someone doesnt want to pay for it he wont pay for it with copy protection either i guess.... yeah maybe with serial keys it gets spread more but who wants to buy it buys it. who already wants not to buy it and use it as warez will wait for a crack, no?

i still have the old TAL Sampler version which i also prefer GUI wise, Patrick lost me atm as a customer, his sneaky way to implement the new CP is not well and I dont like that. maybe i will buy his new plugins in future but atm another one i got on my blacklist now for the moment.

[audiojunkie]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but please post links so that I can read about what you are saying.

I'm not going to do that. This discussion is already outside of KVR's comfort zone.

I'm just saying that Patrick has real legitimate reasons to have changed his copy-protection scheme. It's his business and his livelihood. He obviously looked at the data and made an informed decision that resulted in a net positive for his sales.

Are you saying that you've had a personal chat with Patrick, and that's where you gathered your information? If so, I can accept that. But if you are saying that you've read about this stuff from elsewhere, you need to know that this kind of stuff needs to be backed up with more than hearsay. I would expect some kind of evidence to your claim.

[jamcat]

I'm saying that no developer enters into a change of copy-protection without a very good reason and a lot of data to back it up. It is not a trivial matter, and the long-term ramifications are pretty significant.

I'm also saying that we know it's something Patrick in particular would not undertake without very good reason.

[audiojunkie]

I'm saying that no developer enters into a change of copy-protection without a very good reason and lot of data to back it up. It is not a trivial matter, and the long-term ramifications are pretty significant.

I'm also saying that we know it's something Patrick in particular would not undertake without very good reason.

That's as an uncommitted response as the best of any politician. What you are saying, isn't actually saying anything. Let's go back to the start of this. You claimed:

That no longer holds true.

With TAL's new system, at least each update needs to be cracked, which limits the speed and scale of the distribution. With a simple serial, once there is a successful keygen, pirates have instant access to every update direct from the developer's website, and dissemination only increases over time and with each update. u-he will have to build a completely new system and cancel all existing serial numbers to regain control over his IP again.

and also said:

I'm not going to do that. This discussion is already outside of KVR's comfort zone.

I'm just saying that Patrick has real legitimate reasons to have changed his copy-protection scheme. It's his business and his livelihood. He obviously looked at the data and made an informed decision that resulted in a net positive for his sales.

This was in response to:

Agreed. I don't think there is anything that hasn't been successfully hacked at some point or another. Even U-he's stuff has been hacked, by his own admission. However, his copy protection kept his software protected long enough to get the majority of the new sales (which is where the majority of money is made), and he updates his protection with each release, which keeps the pirates at bay.

Now, I may be misinterpreting what you were saying, but here's how I understood it:

1. My comment that U-he's copy protection has been sufficient no longer holds true.
2. Patrick's got a superior copy protection method that you don't want to talk about.

I for one, don't see that anything we are talking about is outside of any scope. We are not discussing to any degree of detail anything that would be considered wrong or not allowed.

My question for you, is that you claim that U-he's copy protection is not sufficient. Why do you think it is true, when he already knows that his copy protection will be hacked, and his methodology is to delay the hackers, rather than to completely prevent the hacking of the copy protection? Wouldn't you agree, that if U-he's measurement of success is to delay the copy protection from being hacked, long enough for him to get the sales he is expecting, and if he is indeed successfully delaying the copy protection from being hacked long enough to meet his goals, that U-he, according to their own measurement, are successfully succeeding at their copy protection goals? I would say that that is a "Yes".

At any rate, my concern was not with:

1. My comment that U-he's copy protection has been sufficient no longer holds true.
2. Patrick's got a superior copy protection method that you don't want to talk about.

....but rather than copy protection goals.

I maintain, that regardless of the protection scheme used, I expect the following from any copy protection scheme used:

I should be able to take from my personal backup the plugin installer, and the keyfile (or serial number), and install the application onto a new computer without company intervention.

Once they solve that, users will be happy.

[jamcat]

I should be able to take from my personal backup the plugin installer, and the keyfile (or serial number), and install the application onto a new computer without company intervention.

Once they solve that, users will be happy.

The problem with that is "without company intervention," the developer doesn't have control over how many other computers it's installed on, or if they're even yours. Or even if it's a legitimate keyfile they generated and have a record of, for that matter.

What you are demanding is security theater.

[bnz]

I've been messing around with the TAL stuff on Linux a bit. To prove my concept, I have just bought the TAL-G-Verb which I have never used anywhere. Guess what. I have the full version running without doing the C/R, without doing the offline activation and without altering any binaries and with just the serial number. Magic. I won't spill out the details as I want it to stay that way, but it's not even like script kiddy hard to understand how it works.

In that context, the fact that this whole discussion takes place in a TAL thread is somewhat amusing.

Edit: given how this works, I don't think the C/R scheme is there to prevent piracy. This will happen anyway. I think it's more designed to prevent license sharing among friends.