VST3 to VST2

[whyterabbyt]

I see you want to put words into my mouth and engage in logical fallacies.

Actually Im pionting out what you're saying to highlight your logical fallacies. Slightly different thing.

And that's excessive psychological projection there, given how many times you resort to logical fallacies and trying to put words in my mouth.
Maybe hypocrite less and provide a logical justification for your assertions more.

The point I am making is simple.. VST3 is the current industry standard.
Steinberg developed VST3 22 years ago because it offered improvements over VST2

In order, that's an opinion and an unrelated point. And Steinberg's assertion that VST3 was an improvement was rejected by a lot more developers than Steinberg have, so in terms of point , its more of a marketing bullet point.

For CLAP to become an industry standard it has to offer advantages over VST3

No, it doesnt actually. Unless you want to offer proof that industry standards must 'offer advantages', rather than a consensus of, well standardisation, then that's a logical fallacy.

and those advantages have to see real world use in the vast majority of plugins and DAWs.

Feel free to provide evidence of that. Otherwise... nah.

However the fans of CLAP like to engage in half truths and logical fallacies to promote it as you are doing here

Well, Im not promoting it, so that's you lying completely.

Currently if a plugin I buy is available in VST3 and CLAP it makes no sense to download and use the CLAP version because doing so limits your options when it comes to which DAWs and/or hosts you will be able to use it in.

You seem to have things the wrong way round for some reason. I dont know why you're suggesting that people's host choice is based on the plugin format they can download; I think you'll find that when people buy a plugin, they do so on the basis of what works with the host they already have.

Mileages might be different for you, of course. But I consider it somewhat illogical.

There is no compelling to use the CLAP version

People seem to find compelling reasons to use CLAP plugins, though, making that assertion fallacious.

Only I never said that, there you go again with the half truths and logical fallacies

I notice you're not actually disproving my logic, though, are you. Just going again with your half truths and logical fallacies.
Ironic.

I notice you are hilariously attacking me

By asking you questions? Do explain what the attack is, then.

and are not able to actually articulate what advantages CLAP has over VST3.

There's no reason to articulate something I wasnt stating. "I see you want to put words into my mouth and engage in logical fallacies" indeed.
Clue : 'advantages' are your little obsession, not mine.

Because you have to have a compelling reason for people to abandon VST3 in favor of CLAP if CLAP is to become the industry standard.

No you dont, actually.

You know the thing you are avoiding actually doing

No idea what you're trying to say; you're being a bit incoherent here. What am I avoiding doing, exactly?

That's simple VST3 is currently the #1 format of audio plugin formats and is the industry standard.

Your repetition of that assertion is not adequate proof that its true.

For CLAP to ever become the industry standard there would have to be a compelling reason for people to make the switch.

Your repetition of that assertion is not adequate proof that its true.

Currently there is no reason

And yet people have definitely found reasons.

and VST3 offers the largest reason not to make the switch and that is it will work on just about every DAW with the exception of a few proprietary DAWs

Which is also the case for VST2 isnt it?

But you are not going to make the switch to CLAP just so you can't use it in your older computer with old software are you? See there you go again with your logical fallacies

I would suggest you might want to do a bit more research on logical fallacies when your rationale there is such a very silly strawman.

Thanks for pointing out that Steinberg supported VST2 for decades after it was made obsolete by VST3.

Well, I didnt point that out, but thanks for playing. Steinberg didnt 'support' it, but it was still available to use. And most host and plugin developers did use i.

The #1 silly argument made to support CLAP by it's very small but vocal user base is that somehow Steinberg dropped support for VST so people should move to CLAP.

Do you mean VST2?
If so, do provide evidence for that, please.

The person I was responding to has made that exact claim right here on KVR that they are using CLAP because after 22 years Steinberg wants people to move to VST

Do you mean VST3?
Because Steinberg definitely forced large numbers of developers to stop making VST2, so that opinion seems in the ballpark of the facts.

Most people who use software understand the idea that a software standard that came out in 1999 should probably not be used anymore when something better is available.

Proof required.

you are advocating people abandon VST2 in favor of a newer format.

I am advocating no such thing. You're a bit of a hypocrite about the whole "I see you want to put words into my mouth and engage in logical fallacies" thing, arent you, you're doing it persistently.

So why do you have an issue when Steinberg is doing the same thing?

What issue are you asserting I have, given that I havent claimed one. More words in my mouth?

Looking for leads to your answer on that. Asking for a friend

Leads on a fiction you made up?
"I see you want to put words into my mouth and engage in logical fallacies"

[IvyBirds]

The point I am making is simple.. VST3 is the current industry standard.
Steinberg developed VST3 22 years ago because it offered improvements over VST2

that's an opinion and an unrelated point.

There you go again engaging in logical fallacies. You specifically asked about VST3

What is it about VST3 that exempts it from the logic you're applying to CLAP?

Now that I answered your question you declare it's unrelated. That's you not engaging in good faith

And Steinberg's assertion that VST3 was an improvement was rejected by a lot more developers than Steinberg have, so in terms of point , its more of a marketing bullet point.

And now not only are you arguing in bad faith, but you are also ignorant to basic facts

VST3 offered enhanced performance and efficiency due to "Silence Flagging" where the CPU is only active when in use

VST3 also offered resizable GUIs, and multiple MIDI and Audio I/O

So enjoy your life with CLAP, maybe someday you will stop engaging in bad faith arguments full of half truths and falsehoods, because for most people improved CPU performance, and better audio and MIDI routing would be considered an improvement

If you want to further your discussion of CLAP why don't you just start a new thread on it, rather than continue off topic in this one

[whyterabbyt]

There you go again engaging in logical fallacies.

Another repeated assertion without evidence of that assertion.
If you're only going to bleat 'logical fallacy' without logic and evidence to back that up, then your claim is inherently void.

You specifically asked about VST3

I asked multiple questions about your assertions on VST3. That's not quite the same thing, stop pretending it is and making stuff up.

What is it about VST3 that exempts it from the logic you're applying to CLAP?

Now that I answered your question you declare it's unrelated. That's you not engaging in good faith

I asked that question twice, I believe. You answered neither instance in its original context.
Which one are you responding to?

Are you saying that your reason for not applying the same logic of 'CLAP wont become industry standard because developers can compile to multiple plugin formats' to VST3
(even though the capability of having compilation targets has quite literally zero relationship with the the targets themselves)
is basically justified by repeating your circular logic that VST3 is industry standard?

Or are you saying that the reason for not applying the same logic of 'CLAP cant become industry standard because the majority of DAWS dont use it' to VST3
(even though you specifically claimed it was an industry standard before most DAWs used it)
is justified by repeating your circular logic that VST3 is industry standard?

Rather ironic of you to be using the words 'good faith', to be honest.

And now not only are you arguing in bad faith, but you are also ignorant to basic facts

And that's true because you say it is, right? Even though your own assertions are repeatedly false, misleading, conflated, misrepresentations, strawmen, or just plain false.
Did I point out the irony yet?

Here's some of your ignorance of 'basic facts'. Remember that thing you keep saying about Steinberg developing VST3 22 years ago?

This is 2025. You may not realise it, but 22 years ago was 2003.
And Steinberg released VST3 in 2008.
Steinberg make that clear here:
https://steinbergmedia.github.io/vst3_d ... 3.0.0.html

You may not realise it, but 2008 is 17 years ago, and 5 years later than you are claiming.

22 years ago, Steinberg were still very much focussed on VST2, so much so that they released 64-bit capable VST2.4 in 2006, 19 years ago, which is three years after you claim they developed VST3.

'ignorant of basic facts' indeed.

VST3 offered enhanced performance and efficiency due to "Silence Flagging" where the CPU is only active when in use

VST2 plugins already existed which did that.

VST3 also offered resizable GUIs

Erm, not quite. It supports rezeable GUIs which is a rather different thing. VST3 has no intrinsic GUI functionallity. You're maybe confusing yourself over VSTGUI, which, although I believe is or has been shipped with the VST SDK, is a different API, is entirely optional, not actually required to do UI resizing, and was originally concurrent with VST2.
VST3 can query whether the UI can resize, etc but it doesnt actually 'offer' the resizing itself.
Feel free to quote the VST3 API documentation to prove otherwise though.

and multiple MIDI and Audio I/O

VST2 plugins already existed which could do that.

You dont seem to be getting many of these 'facts' right, are you?

You forgot an actual fact, though. Unlike in VST 2, MIDI is not included in VST 3.

So enjoy your life with CLAP

Are you asserting that I use CLAP plugins? That's just bad faith, fallacious logic, no facts, trying to speak for me, yada yada.
Do feel free to list the CLAP plugins I use, and my choice of DAW, though, since you're so keen on presenting your insight on my choices.

, maybe someday you will stop engaging in bad faith arguments full of half truths and falsehoods,

And yet somehow I dont see you stopping engaging in bad faith arguments full of half truths and falsehoods.

because for most people improved CPU performance, and better audio and MIDI routing would be considered an improvement

Well, for most people, those factors wouldnt be an improvement over something that could already do those things. And VST2 can.

If you want to further your discussion of CLAP

If I wanted to, then I would, obviously. Its pretty redundant of you to say so. But since I was discussing your assertions about CLAP (and VST3), not CLAP itself, then there's no 'if' here.
Thats just you, in bad faith, again.

why don't you just start a new thread on it, rather than continue off topic in this one

Because rather obviously because you're not doing that, and your statements are what Im addressing.

Its weird, you really do seem threatened by the existence of an alternate cross-platform API to VST3,its a very weird thing to see someone so fixated and invested.
Seems like you've got some sort of issue where you cant just use the available tools, you have to prove to everyone that you use the best tools, that your decisions are the bestest decisions, and that everyone who doesnt agree with you must be equally deranged about their own tools as you (even though you dont actually know what tools they use.)
Because, unfortunately, we get a few of you around here, and its kinda sad.

[rod_zero]

Since VST3 was released we also got: Audio units, AAX, Reason format, and now clap.

Each one of those had big limitations and still I don't remember zealots working overtime to make the case for the superiority of VST3.

CLAP in the other hand seems to get people very defensive about Steinberg, strange since it has been the only format brought by a group of developers pushing the technology forward.

Anyway, the recent capitulation by Steinberg, of their heavy handed approach to licensing , totally validates the request by developers of an open format.

Also, FL studio has a huge user base and supports CLAP.

Logic, protools and cubase will use their proprietary format forever.

So that actually only leaves one big DAW that can adopt CLAP: Ableton Live, if they do the two most used DAWs will support it.

[IvyBirds]

Anyway, the recent capitulation by Steinberg, of their heavy handed approach to licensing , totally validates the request by developers of an open format.

You do realize that VST3 is open sourced with a standard MIT license. How is that being heavy handed?

You can read the license here

https://github.com/steinbergmedia/vst3s ... ICENSE.txt

It's the same exact open sourced licensing as CLAP by the way, with the same exact permissions

The MIT License means free use, modification, and distribution so long as you retain the original copyright and license text. That’s it, so it’s free for use across commercial and non-commercial, free/open source/libre and proprietary projects. And this is relevant across all platforms: macOS, Windows, and Linux.

MIT licensing means there’s an open path for VST 3 going forward. Unlike VST2, VST 3 can’t be discontinued; its source will always be available under an open license,

[soniccraft]

Right then, let's have a proper look at this CLAP nonsense shall we.

VST3's been MIT licensed since October 2025 the exact same licence as CLAP. So what's CLAP's entire reason for existing again? Oh right, being an "open alternative" to a format that's now identically open. Cracking work lads.

VST3 works in basically everything that matters. CLAP? Bitwig, Reaper, FL Studio, and a collection of DAWs nobody's ever heard of. Colour me impressed.

So when you download the CLAP version instead of VST3, you're deliberately making your plugins work in fewer places. For what exactly? The warm fuzzy feeling of supporting some pet project from a some developers who fancied reinventing the wheel?

CLAP launched in 2022 positioning itself as the "open" solution, then Steinberg made VST3 MIT licensed three years later. Whoops. Entire value proposition: gone. Now we've got yet another format cluttering up build systems, confusing punters, and offering precisely sod all over VST3 except the ability to say "look what we made".

Cheers for that. Just what the industry was crying out for... more fragmentation.

[whyterabbyt]

Anyway, the recent capitulation by Steinberg, of their heavy handed approach to licensing , totally validates the request by developers of an open format.

You do realize that VST3 is open sourced with a standard MIT license. How is that being heavy handed?

You do realise that's exactly what he was talking about?

Nah, probably not.

[whyterabbyt]

Right then, let's have a proper look at this CLAP nonsense shall we.

And right off the bat you've assured us it'll be a logical, consistent, and unbiased look.

VST3's been MIT licensed since October 2025 the exact same licence as CLAP.

So a whole couple of weeks, then?

So what's CLAP's entire reason for existing again? Oh right, being an "open alternative" to a format that's now identically open. Cracking work lads.

Cracking work indeed, they've been very successful in countering Steinberg's position, to the point where Steinberg had to give in and copy them.

So what's VST3's entire reason for existing now? Oh right, being an "open alternative" to a format that was open from its inception.

VST3 works in basically everything that matters. CLAP? Bitwig, Reaper, FL Studio, and a collection of DAWs nobody's ever heard of. Colour me impressed.

VST3 doesnt work in ProTools, which matters in recording studios and postproduction, and it doesnt work in Garageband or Logic, which matters on Mac.

So what's that 'everything' then? Cubase and Live? Two whole DAWs?

Colour me impressed by that.
Especially when Ableton implement CLAP support. And JUCE 9 gets released.

So when you download the CLAP version instead of VST3, you're deliberately making your plugins work in fewer places.

Because everyone downloads the plugin formats they cant use, right?

For what exactly? The warm fuzzy feeling of supporting some pet project from a some developers who fancied reinventing the wheel?

I imagine most people who have gone down the CLAP route made that decision prior to two weeks ago, possibly driven by not getting the warm fuzzy feeling of supporting some pet project from Steinberg who fancied reinventing the wheel.

CLAP launched in 2022 positioning itself as the "open" solution, then Steinberg made VST3 MIT licensed two weeks ago

ftfy.

Wow. Entire value proposition of an open format: proven.

ftfy too.

Now we've got yet another format cluttering up build systems, confusing punters, and offering precisely sod all over VST2 except the ability to say "look what we made".

A valid response to Steinberg, circa 2008, yes.

I do take your point about 'another format cluttering up build systems', though, it must be terrifying for a developer that's only just found themselves lucky enough to be forced to stop making VST2 plugins to discover that their own choice to make CLAP plugins has the devastating result that they'll have to build one additional plugin format to the two or three they already target. That does indeed sound like something with devastating effects on their development process.
Just as well you're here to warn them of that terrifying consequence, eh?

[Cheers for that. Just what the industry was crying out for... more fragmentation.

But fragmentation is okay when Steinberg do it, right?

And I think its fair to say that quite a lot of the plugin industry was happy to see a cross-platform plugin standard that was developed cooperatively by and for plugin developers, instead of by a single DAW developer who used their license over it to coerce plugin developers to abandon other plugin formats.

But you go right on, telling us which plugins we shouldnt use or develop for. Because its your call, not ours, right?

[IvyBirds]

Anyway, the recent capitulation by Steinberg, of their heavy handed approach to licensing , totally validates the request by developers of an open format.

You do realize that VST3 is open sourced with a standard MIT license. How is that being heavy handed?

You do realise that's exactly what he was talking about?

Nah, probably not.

Only he wasn't. The entire premise for CLAP as communicated by the CLAP Fanbois was that it's open sourced while VST3 was on the hands of the evil Steinberg

That's not a thing anymore

why did they push for open source and hate on Steinberg? Because they claim they are concerned with longevity and lifespan of their plugins. Despite the fact that Steinberg supported VST2 for decades after they replaced it, they where convinced at any moment VST3 would somehow turn into a pumpkin and no longer work

That is simply not a thing any more

Anyone who ACTUALLY cares about longevity and lifespan of plugins should want CLAP to just go away, they should want every developer to stop developing it, and they should want DAWs to stop supporting it

Why? Because there is no longer any reason for it to exist, and all it's doing is fragmenting the market. It's already dead now, the CLAP Fanbois just need to accept that fact and actually walk the talk they have pretended to care about the last few years

Of course if people want to use CLAP awesome, no one really cares, but the arguments for it are now gone

As it stands VST3 works in Cubase, Live, Bitwig, Studio One, and every other non proprietary DAW runs VST3, the same can not be said for CLAP

So it's time to embrace the Open Sourced industry standard format, if you actually care about open sourced and product longevity and that isn't CLAP

So by all means continue to promote and argue for CLAP, by doing so all you are accomplishing is the promotion of a format that makes it harder for musicians for no purpose or reason whatsoever

[Super Piano Hater 64]

In one sense, sure, the license change means Mission Accomplished™. Fly a banner on an aircraft carrier and all that.

...Except VST3 is still a fiendishly complicated format to actually support, especially on the hosting side. The documentation is still incomplete and sometimes just wrong. And even if they wise up and fix that, anyone working with it will still have a huge amount of code to write. The more code you write, the more bugs you write, and the more time and effort you need to debug the resulting mess. No third party host has ever implemented the whole VST3 feature set. No, not even Studio One.

VST3 support is a maintenance burden unlike any other plugin format I've ever heard of. Even under the MIT license, it continues to be a huge drag on the development of new DAW features. As long as that's true (ie. as long as VST3 is still around) CLAP will still have an important role to play.

[whyterabbyt]

putting words in other people's mouths
lies
half-truths
misrepresentation
basic factual inaccuracies
circular argumentation
assertions without evidence
repetition instead of proof
logical fallacies

Your usual gibbering shite, basically.

[IvyBirds]

putting words in other people's mouths
lies
half-truths
misrepresentation
basic factual inaccuracies
circular argumentation
assertions without evidence
repetition instead of proof
logical fallacies

Your usual gibbering shite, basically.

What have I said about CLAP that isn't true? Thanks however for letting me know I am on target as you are now reduced to personal insults rather than explaining why CLAP shouldn't be abandoned by people who care about longevity of open sourced software

[IvyBirds]

In one sense, sure, the license change means Mission Accomplished™. Fly a banner on an aircraft carrier and all that.

...Except VST3 is still a fiendishly complicated format to actually support, especially on the hosting side. The documentation is still incomplete and sometimes just wrong. And even if they wise up and fix that, anyone working with it will still have a huge amount of code to write. The more code you write, the more bugs you write, and the more time and effort you need to debug the resulting mess. No third party host has ever implemented the whole VST3 feature set. No, not even Studio One.

VST3 support is a maintenance burden unlike any other plugin format I've ever heard of. Even under the MIT license, it continues to be a huge drag on the development of new DAW features. As long as that's true (ie. as long as VST3 is still around) CLAP will still have an important role to play.

With full MIDI 2.0 support in VST3 what DAW features are a huge drag to develop with VST3 that are not equally as much as a drag with CLAP?

DAW developers and plugin developers should be embracing MIDI 2.0 and all the things that bidirectional high speed high bit rate MIDI has to offer. Along the new MIDI-CI (Capability Inquiry) messages (including the MIDI-CI Profile for MPE) and UMP EndPoint Device Discovery Messages that would instantly allow plugins, controllers, and DAWs to talk to each other and utilize the over 32,000 available high resolution CCs with 65,536 steps , across 256 channels all while being backwards compatible with MIDI 1.0

MIDI 2.0 is the open sourced industry standard, that's what DAWs should be working with in 2025, not the proprietary formats you are advocating for

With MIDI 2.0 your plugins should tell your DAW automatically this is what I am, this is what I do, and these are the controls I will listen for.

[Super Piano Hater 64]

the proprietary formats you are advocating for

Nah.

Peace out.

[whyterabbyt]

What have I said about CLAP that isn't true?

putting words in other people's mouths
lies
half-truths
misrepresentation
basic factual inaccuracies
circular argumentation
assertions without evidence
repetition instead of proof
logical fallacies
bad faith

Your usual gibbering shite, basically.

you are now reduced to personal insults

thanks for reminding me of your astounding reliance on hypocrisy, and all your projection. i'd forgotten to mention that.

edit : oops forgot how much you argue in bad faith as well. added to the list.