VST3 to VST2

[soniccraft]

So a whole couple of weeks, then?

Two weeks, three years - makes sod all difference to the end user does it? Point is VST3 is MIT licensed now, same as CLAP. License advantage: none.

VST3 doesnt work in ProTools, which matters in recording studios and postproduction, and it doesnt work in Garageband or Logic, which matters on Mac.

Right, because Pro Tools uses AAX (proprietary Avid format) and Logic uses AU (Apple's format). CLAP doesn't work in those either, does it? So how's CLAP solving that problem exactly?

Especially when Ableton implement CLAP support. And JUCE 9 gets released.

"When." Lovely word that. Ableton's shown zero indication they're supporting CLAP anytime soon. You're banking on hypotheticals whilst VST3 works in everything *today*.

Because everyone downloads the plugin formats they cant use, right?

Missed the point entirely. If a developer only releases CLAP, they've excluded their plugin from working in Ableton, Cubase, and half the industry. That's limiting *their* market, not the user's choice.

But fragmentation is okay when Steinberg do it, right?

VST3 was released in 2008. VST2 came out in 1999 - nine years prior. That's called evolution, not fragmentation. CLAP in 2022 added a fourth format when three already existed. That's just making a mess.

You've basically admitted CLAP only exists because Steinberg were being difficult about licensing? Now they're not. Job done. Move on.

[whyterabbyt]

Two weeks, three years - makes sod all difference to the end user does it? Point is VST3 is MIT licensed now, same as CLAP. License advantage: none.

No, the point is that Steinberg had to copy CLAP's licensing. Which is something I already said, but you have specifically avoided engaging with.

Right, because Pro Tools uses AAX (proprietary Avid format) and Logic uses AU (Apple's format).

Well done.

CLAP doesn't work in those either, does it?

That's not really relevant to your false assertions as to 'VST3 working in everything that matters' is it now?

So how's CLAP solving that problem exactly?

What problem? The context was your (false) claim that 'VST3 is 'working in everything that matters'
Why would that be a problem that was up to CLAP to solve in when it wasnt true in the first place?
Are you asserting that somehow CLAP has to work everywhere that matters when VST3 doesnt? That's a logical fallacy worthy of LiarBirds.

Ableton's shown zero indication they're supporting CLAP anytime soon

.

So? You're trying to conflate 'zero indication 'with 'zero intent'?

Interesting.

And when you say "When." Lovely word that" are you claiming that it wont happen?
Even though Ableton's shown zero indication they're not supporting CLAP anytime soon?
Because that would be fallacious logic, like LiarBirds does.

You're banking on hypotheticals whilst VST3 works in everything *today*.

No, Im not banking on anything. It makes no odds to me whatsoever. You're just making things up, the same way LiarBirds does.
And we've already established VST3 doesnt work in 'everything *today*' remember?

Missed the point entirely. If a developer only releases CLAP, they've excluded their plugin from working in Ableton, Cubase, and half the industry. That's limiting *their* market, not the user's choice.

'If.' Lovely word that. Banking on hypotheticals to make your 'point' then? Interesting. Not very consistent of you though, as to what you try as rebuttal, versus what you actually say yourself.

So yes, if a developer only builds in one format, they've only built in one format. That's not much of a point to make, though. Self-evident, really.
There are plenty of developers only building in one format, of course.

VST3 was released in 2008. VST2 came out in 1999 - nine years prior.

Well done on getting the date of VST3 right, I had to correct LiarBirds on that one.

That's called evolution, not fragmentation.

No, VST3 wasnt an evolution of VST2, the two APIs are very different.
So yes, its fragmentation

CLAP in 2022 added a fourth format when three already existed. That's just making a mess.

Yes its a whole one more format. What a mess.

You've basically admitted CLAP only exists because Steinberg were being difficult about licensing?

Hmmm, classic LiarBirds styleee strawman that. You do that a lot, are you related?

Now they're not. Job done. Move on.

Yes, that makes sense. Steinberg decide to match CLAPs license for 'some' reason (that obviously cant be the success of CLAP), so you say 'hey stop using CLAP, everyone now dance to Steinberg's new tune'
Because Steinberg clearly have changed, and never having revoked VST2 licenses retrospectively, there's nothing dodgy they'd ever do again.
And obviously all the developers who saw any advantage in CLAP, in license terms or technical terms, will want to get back on on that particular action as soon as they can.
Absolutely. Maybe you'll want to tell us which host and plugins we have to use while you're at it.

[IvyBirds]

Two weeks, three years - makes sod all difference to the end user does it? Point is VST3 is MIT licensed now, same as CLAP. License advantage: none.

No, the point is that Steinberg had to copy CLAP's licensing. Which is something I already said, but you have specifically avoided engaging with.

Only they didn't copy anything it's just been updated from GPLv3 to a more permissive MIT license. VST3 is already supported across many open tools, and was already open sourced under GPLv3

You are insinuating that CLAP invented the MIT license.

[rod_zero]

Anyway, the recent capitulation by Steinberg, of their heavy handed approach to licensing , totally validates the request by developers of an open format.

You do realize that VST3 is open sourced with a standard MIT license. How is that being heavy handed?

You can read the license here

https://github.com/steinbergmedia/vst3s ... ICENSE.txt

It's the same exact open sourced licensing as CLAP by the way, with the same exact permissions

The MIT License means free use, modification, and distribution so long as you retain the original copyright and license text. That’s it, so it’s free for use across commercial and non-commercial, free/open source/libre and proprietary projects. And this is relevant across all platforms: macOS, Windows, and Linux.

MIT licensing means there’s an open path for VST 3 going forward. Unlike VST2, VST 3 can’t be discontinued; its source will always be available under an open license,

The capitulation is exactly that: they changed the whole license scheme for VST3, which previously was very heavy handed.

[IvyBirds]

Anyway, the recent capitulation by Steinberg, of their heavy handed approach to licensing , totally validates the request by developers of an open format.

You do realize that VST3 is open sourced with a standard MIT license. How is that being heavy handed?

You can read the license here

https://github.com/steinbergmedia/vst3s ... ICENSE.txt

It's the same exact open sourced licensing as CLAP by the way, with the same exact permissions

The MIT License means free use, modification, and distribution so long as you retain the original copyright and license text. That’s it, so it’s free for use across commercial and non-commercial, free/open source/libre and proprietary projects. And this is relevant across all platforms: macOS, Windows, and Linux.

MIT licensing means there’s an open path for VST 3 going forward. Unlike VST2, VST 3 can’t be discontinued; its source will always be available under an open license,

The capitulation is exactly that: they changed the whole license scheme for VST3, which previously was very heavy handed.

So what you are saying is that there is now zero reason for CLAP to exist right?

[soniccraft]

No, the point is that Steinberg had to copy CLAP's licensing.

"Had to copy" or "chose to adopt the same widely-used MIT license that hundreds of projects use"? Bit of a reach claiming CLAP invented MIT licensing mate.

That's not really relevant to your false assertions as to 'VST3 working in everything that matters' is it now?

Fair cop - I should've specified "everything that supports third-party plugin standards." Pro Tools and Logic use their own proprietary formats. CLAP doesn't solve that. Neither does VST3. Moving on.

So? You're trying to conflate 'zero indication' with 'zero intent'?

No, I'm saying you're arguing based on "maybe one day Ableton will" whilst ignoring that VST3 works there right now. That's not a compelling argument.

No, VST3 wasnt an evolution of VST2, the two APIs are very different. So yes, its fragmentation

By that logic every major version of any software that changes the API is "fragmentation." It's called progress. VST3 replaced an aging standard. CLAP arrived when we already had VST3, AU, and AAX working fine.

Maybe you'll want to tell us which host and plugins we have to use while you're at it.

Use whatever you like mate. I'm simply pointing out CLAP's offered nothing VST3 doesn't since October. If that bothers you, crack on with CLAP. Doesn't affect me either way.

[rod_zero]

I hope steinberg pays you guys cause you are definitely working overtime.

[seafire]

Seems to be a lot of fuss about nothing.

[whyterabbyt]

You are insinuating that CLAP invented the MIT license.

That's the stupidest thing youve ever said.

[whyterabbyt]

"Had to copy" or "chose to adopt the same widely-used MIT license that hundreds of projects use"?

Yes, those would be equivalent.

Bit of a reach claiming CLAP invented MIT licensing mate.

Indeed it would be, if it had happened. But it didnt, of course.

No, I'm saying you're arguing based on "maybe one day Ableton will" whilst ignoring that VST3 works there right now. That's not a compelling argument.

Remind me what I was arguing again?
Was it that if Abelton introduced support for CLAP then the small number of DAWs that didnt use CLAP would be reduced?
Clue: Yes it was.
Remind me how VST3 working in Ableton right now affects that?

By that logic every major version of any software that changes the API is "fragmentation."

Fallacious, as I didnt say VST3 wasnt an evolution from VST2 on the basis that it was a 'major version.'
I specifically said VST3 wasnt an evolution from VST2 because its a completely different API.
Its not a change from VST2 at all, major version or otherwise; its an entirely new thing.

It's called progress. VST3 replaced an aging standard. CLAP arrived when we already had VST3, AU, and AAX working fine.

yup, that's progress.

Use whatever you like mate. I'm simply pointing out CLAP's offered nothing VST3 doesn't since October.

Well, then you're pointing out the wrong difference between them.

If that bothers you, crack on with CLAP. Doesn't affect me either way.

So, just like Liarbirds, you're assuming I use CLAP? How very.

(edited for formatting errors)

[whyterabbyt]

Seems to be a lot of fuss about nothing.

Hilariously so.

[whyterabbyt]

So what you are saying is that there is now zero reason for CLAP to exist right?

So what you are saying is that there is now equally zero reason for VST3 to exist?

[IvyBirds]

So what you are saying is that there is now zero reason for CLAP to exist right?

So what you are saying is that there is now equally zero reason for VST3 to exist?

Nope because it's the industry standard and the plugin format that works with the most DAWs, Video Editors, and hosts

Compared with CLAP it's bo contest which is the better format when it comes to comparability

Not only that more plugin options exist in VST3 than CLAP. CLAP could disappear today and the overwhelming vast majority of musicians who use plugins wouldn't notice and those who use CLAP could just revert to VST3

If VST3 were to disappear today it would create a major problem for a huge amount of musicians as you can't replace it with anything else

[soniccraft]

Remind me what I was arguing again?
Was it that if Abelton introduced support for CLAP then the small number of DAWs that didnt use CLAP would be reduced?

Right, so your argument boils down to "if Ableton adds CLAP support, more DAWs will support CLAP." Groundbreaking stuff that.

I specifically said VST3 wasnt an evolution from VST2 because its a completely different API. Its not a change from VST2 at all, major version or otherwise; its an entirely new thing.

And CLAP is... what exactly? A minor tweak to VST3? No, it's also "an entirely new thing" that arrived 14 years later solving problems VST3 had already addressed. At least VST3 had the excuse of replacing a genuinely outdated standard.

Well, then you're pointing out the wrong difference between them.

Go on then - what's the right difference? What does CLAP offer that VST3 with MIT licensing doesn't? Because you've spent plenty of posts dodging that question whilst banging on about hypothetical Ableton support and semantic arguments about what counts as "evolution."

So, just like Liarbirds, you're assuming I use CLAP?

Don't particularly care what you use mate. I'm just pointing out it's redundant. Feel free to prove otherwise with actual technical advantages rather than "but what if Ableton..."

[whyterabbyt]

Nope because it's the industry standard

No, its merely a standard, not 'the' standard. Your repetition isnt proof, remember?

and the plugin format that works with the most DAWs, Video Editors, and hosts

}

Show us the evidence of that, then.

Compared with CLAP it's bo contest which is the better format when it comes to comparability

comparability
noun

A similarity allowing comparison; an approximate equivalence.

So VST3 is better at being equivalent? Wow.

Not only that more plugin options exist in VST3 than CLAP. CLAP could disappear today and the overwhelming vast majority of musicians who use plugins wouldn't notice and those who use CLAP could just revert to VST3

And yet the entire context was what things will be like in 3 years, not today.

If VST3 were to disappear today it would create a major problem for a huge amount of musicians as you can't replace it with anything else

What a ludicrous hypothetical.
(Of course if it magically vanishes, its equally as likely to be magically replaced by other audio plugin API )