Valhalla FutureVerb

[Korg Supporter]

I would like to see frequency shifting and formant filter modes added to the reverb and pre-delay, as well as longer echo times

[jens]

I finally came around to try FutureVerb.

While the reverb sounds wonderful by itself and the delay isn't half bad either, the implementation as it currently is, seems to have one huge glaring flaw: I didn't find a way to control how much delay (in the "Echo->Rev" configuration*) is being fed into the reverb. That many delay modes have a drive parameter makes this shortcoming even more severe. I also guess that's why many folks seem to have a hard time getting their heads around this implementation. There is simply a crucial "Feed" (or whatever you may call it) control missing between the delay and the reverb**.

*It's basically the same issue if the reverb comes before the delay, i guess; I think it's less obvious in this case though.

**I think technically this would be another wet/dry control for whatever comes first in the chain.


I know Abbey Road Chambers has the exact same design flaw, but personally I find that not much of a consolation.
Especially since that now that it is out of beta there's probably not much of a chance that this gets added/changed.

Beta-testers, huh?


But then again I think the reverb all by itself is well worth the price - the wasted chance is still a bit of a pain though.

[kritikon]

Yeah, I agree it's a bit of a weird implementation. However, I do like their stated design choice that they want to keep it simple - Futureverb could be incredibly complicated if we had control over every parameter. It's a bit of a compromise I suppose, and overall I find it worthwhile for the superb reverb. But yeah...when I use it as a delay it kinda frustrates me. I think I just have to stop myself from thinking of it as a proper delay - it's a reverb first and foremost, but one that has some delay extras thrown in. And I'll accept some shortcomings at such a great price for a lush reverb.

[Constructed Identity]

You have your super-complex reverbs like Reverberate, and then there are the super simple reverbs like DDMF Magic Verb. I use both but these days more the simpler variety. I found that if something is very complex I can spend hours just tweaking things and that takes away from getting stuff accomplished.

[v1md]

I like this reverb, but I'm not in awe of it. Most features feel only incremental compared to previous Valhalla releases. I know the dev has spent considerable time trying to make this perfect, and this is commendable. But there isn't much here that makes me want to buy this. I get used to reverb sounds quickly, and whatever novelty FV offers will probably fade for me soon.

[jens]

You have your super-complex reverbs like Reverberate, and then there are the super simple reverbs like DDMF Magic Verb. I use both but these days more the simpler variety. I found that if something is very complex I can spend hours just tweaking things and that takes away from getting stuff accomplished.

Not sure if this is meant as a reply to my post, but my suggestion for improvement would actually make the plugin easier to use. Less parameters doesn't neccessarily equate increased ease of useage.

If there'd be an kind of a routing arrow symbol (i.e. a graphical element) that goes from the first block (module) to the second, with a little knob betwen them (above the line of the arrow) and another one for each block that indicates that "level" controls a direct output of this block (i.e. is routed to the dry/wet control), this would certainly make the routing crystal clear - at least as long as both blocks switch their position on the GUI depending on the routing - which should coding-wise be pretty trivial. There must be hundreds of plugin that graphically illustrate the position of individual processing modules in the signal chain .

Again: beta-testing?


If you want to realize how limited the delay's (into the reverb) usefullness of Future Verb is opposed to one where you can control a dry/wet amount of the delay that goes into the reverb, then play around with Valhalla Delay in front of Future Verb on a send. Especially when using pitch-shifting (of which Future Verb offers several algos after all) it is crucial that the signal that goes into the reverb is not a 100% wet delay signal - at least if not way-out-there OTT special effects are the only thing you're interested in. With pitch-shifting I personally find that something between 2 to 5% is already enough and significantly more than that nothing I'd normally have much use for.


I'll be brutally honest here: it seems like the vast majority of the eight years development time went into the actual algos (and the macros controlling them) and delay/reverb marriage was a bit of an afterthough that's been implemented towards the last minute without much of a proper thought having been invested in it - which is a bit of a shame.

Again: even without the reverb Future Verb is really great, don't get me wrong.

[kraster]

I'll be brutally honest here: it seems like the vast majority of the eight years development time went into the actual algos (and the macros controlling them) and delay/reverb marriage was a bit of an afterthough that's been implemented towards the last minute without much of a proper thought having been invested in it - which is a bit of a shame.

Again: even without the reverb Future Verb is really great, don't get me wrong.

I don't have an issue with the implementation at all. I can see why they did it. It's not that complicated.

The Delay is there in pre reverb mode for adding whatever flavour you want either before or after.

I'm not finding the lack of wet/dry for the level in any way limiting. Since the modern delay algo goes to 0ms to use it strictly a predelay.

Use the other algos for various colour options. Either with a delay time or leave it at 0ms. Put it in Rev-> delay mode and turn the delay down completely and the delay has no effect on the sound.

The idea that Valhalla just stuck something in at the last minute is ridiculous and a complete invention of your own that you've decided to get mad at.

[vitocorleone123]

I like this reverb, but I'm not in awe of it. Most features feel only incremental compared to previous Valhalla releases. I know the dev has spent considerable time trying to make this perfect, and this is commendable. But there isn't much here that makes me want to buy this. I get used to reverb sounds quickly, and whatever novelty FV offers will probably fade for me soon.

I generally don't use "novelty" reverbs. FV isn't a novelty reverb.

FV is on it's way to being in my top 3 or 4 reverbs of all time so far, along with Cinematic Rooms Pro, TaiChi, and HDCart. We saw the signs in the last few algos added to VVV, I think. But, yes, FV is right up there, sonically, with Liquidsonics, but with a philosophy of simplicity over that of control. For the record, CRP is my favorite reverb and would be the one I'd still pick if I could only use one reverb (thankfully I don't have to).

[jens]

I'll be brutally honest here: it seems like the vast majority of the eight years development time went into the actual algos (and the macros controlling them) and delay/reverb marriage was a bit of an afterthough that's been implemented towards the last minute without much of a proper thought having been invested in it - which is a bit of a shame.

Again: even without the reverb Future Verb is really great, don't get me wrong.

I don't have an issue with the implementation at all. I can see why they did it. It's not that complicated.

The Delay is there in pre reverb mode for adding whatever flavour you want either before or after.

I'm not finding the lack of wet/dry for the level in any way limiting. Since the modern delay algo goes to 0ms to use it strictly a predelay.

Use the other algos for various colour options. Either with a delay time or leave it at 0ms. Put it in Rev-> delay mode and turn the delay down completely and the delay has no effect on the sound.

The idea that Valhalla just stuck something in at the last minute is ridiculous and a complete invention of your own that you've decided to get mad at.

Sorry, but your reply shows that you didn't really get my critique.

[mholloway]

Sorry, but your reply shows that you didn't really get my critique.

It's called: They disagree with you.

[jens]

Sorry, but your reply shows that you didn't really get my critique.

It's called: They disagree with you.

Not, it's not. Disagreement is fine. Giving a reply that conpletely ignores the argument you answer is not (in my book - your mileage may vary).

[bmanic]

Finally had some time to take this for a spin. This is in my opinion the absolute finest reverb from ValhallaDSP so far. It's the first reverb by Sean that has that elusive "it just fits in the mix" thing that some of the other big names have been able to achieve. No need for EQ or any kind of post processing (though ducking is missing but it's simple enough to setup with external plugins when needed).

I always struggled a bit with VVV and Room in terms of getting them to fit within a mix or properly envelop the source signal. They always had some form of buildup in the low-mids/mids that annoyed me, so I always had to tinker with post processing, usually EQ or allpass filters. This is not the case with FutureVerb. It works amazingly well at almost all room sizes and the different algorithms.

The only criticism I have is the tape and analogue delay sections. When drive is set to zero, there is still very noticeable and quite a heavy amount of saturation on signals in the -6dBFS to 0dBFS range. I wish the control went down to -24dB so we wouldn't have to use external solutions for gain staging things. I also wish the feedback could go into really aggressive self-oscillation. Would be cool for more extreme effects. But that's about all the critique I can think of. UI isn't exactly easy on the eyes but I don't really expect that from a Valhalla plugin these days so I won't comment on that. It works well enough for what it does.

The reverb algorithms as superb. Absolutely in the top 5 ever created in my opinion. This is definitely going in the shopping basket for Christmas.

[foosnark]

I happen to think that adding a wet/dry control for that send amount would be marginally useful at best, and I can understand leaving it out. It's very much consistent with leaving out the much more commonly requested ducking.

If you want more flexibility, you can simply run two instances of FutureVerb (or indeed, any delay or reverb plugins of your choice) any and dial in the mix levels however you like.

When I start thinking about this, what comes to mind is a full-on matrix mixer. That would allow such fun things as putting the reverb after the echo but then feeding the reverb output back into the echo, or vice versa. Honestly that sounds way more interesting to me than adding a wet/dry to the routing. But again, it's something I could already set up in Bitwig with a little effort.

[_leras]

I think this is a great reverb, but is the second Valhalla reverb now that I think could really benefit from an expanded UI. The other being Supermassive, which being free/experimental is hard to press a developer on.

I think it's perhaps a bit dogmatic not to consider a slightly larger UI for this one though.

There's clearly a lot under the hood and plenty of reasons to perhaps expose a bit more of it.

I'd love an expanded version of the delay with a few more controls, and the same goes for the reverb and perhaps routing and predelay.

All of that said though, I think it sounds really good. I really like what the delay brings, and think the reverb has a great flavour especially for real voices and instruments.

Also, some great textures and timbers to be had out of this without even considering the actual delay and reverbs for their main function. Big Valhalla.

[_leras]

If you want more flexibility, you can simply run two instances of FutureVerb (or indeed, any delay or reverb plugins of your choice) any and dial in the mix levels however you like.

...

, it's something I could already set up in Bitwig with a little effort.

One of the things I like almost about the Valhalla plug ins is that I can drop them in and very quickly dial something in.

I do think it would be great if things already in the plug in could be used with a bit more flexibility. There's clearly a lot under the hood and I think a bit more could be exposed.