Master Fader

[Left Headphone]

Where do leave your master fader at? 0db, -3db, or -6db

I have heard always leave at 0db. Is this true?

[Andywanders]

I do... 0db that is.

I guess it comes from the days when I used a real mixer; all the faders would be set to 0db and the input signal was adjusted with the gain control at the top of the strip. Once set to a decent level, then individual chanells could be cut or boosted as and when. The master was just that - a master FADER.

Of course, those desks and tape recorders had headroom. Digital recording has re-written the book, but I still set my master to 0db and rely more on chanel faders. Old habits die hard I guess.

[Kim Lajoie]

Anywhere. For convenience and headroom, I keep my master output volume on my mixer at unity, and adjust the master fader in software to a comfortable level.

If I kept it at unity, I have to keep adjusting my hardware volume control (which is almost out of reach for me), and I run out of digital headroom too easily.

I fix the digital output level properly when I'm finished mixing, and I'm mastering to mp3 or audio cd.

Forever,




Kim.

[Left Headphone]

I read somewhere that, if you are recording at 24 bit, your mix should not go over -3db on the master fader. Maybe to leave room for mastering. I'm clueless.

[Andywanders]

Ah yes... But that's got nothing to with where the fader is - well, not much anyway.

The master fader can be at -3db but the signal can still go above 0db if the chanel faders are too high. In other words; the master fader is not a limiter.

If you do use a limiter across the master outs, you can set it so that nothing goes above -3db. But be careful not to drive it too much (watch the gain reduction meter in the limiter) or you may get nasty pumping effects.

The trick is to balance the settings of the chanell faders, master fader and whatever limiter/compressor (if any) to get a nice, clean signal that never goes above 0db.

And what the correct final signal level should be (0db, -3db or -6db) is another matter entirely. I too have read that it should be -3db, but I know professional engineers who go to 0db. I've seen commercially released CDs that peak at 0db too. So I just don't know what the rule is, or even if there is one.

[MaxC]

If you do use a limiter across the master outs, you can set it so that nothing goes above -3db. But be careful not to drive it too much (watch the gain reduction meter in the limiter) or you may get nasty pumping effects.

Why would one want to limit to -3db? I've always assumed to just stick with 0 db.

[Kim Lajoie]

Why would one want to limit to -3db? I've always assumed to just stick with 0 db.

Theory suggests that when the digital audio data is reconstructed into analogue audio by the DAC, it is actually possible for the signal to exceed 0dBFS. There are no specifications or agreed standards for behaviour in these conditions, so it's possible that some DACs make different sounds... -3dBFS is the theoretical maximum digital peak value that doesn't allow any signal to exceed 0dBFS when it's reconstructed.

Really though, it depends on what kind of sound you want. If you're doing a to-the-wall layered rock/metal thing, then going all the way to 0dBFS and beyond might be an appropriate sound. However, if you're mastering cool jazz or classical music, then you're probably not anywhere near 0dBFS anyway.

Forever,




Kim.

[kritikon]

It's a good habit to leave your master fader at unity. It seems a few people forget that the meter reading your master buss gives you is not necessarily the actual level going into the buss. If your master is at 0, then you know exactly what level the peaks are that are going into the master buss. If you get a clip, it will register, and if you get a clip, then it means your individual channels or subgroups are set too loud.

The reason I mention this is that most, if not all people will use compressors etc across the master buss. If you're feeding signals too high into your master buss, the compressor will always be compressing the peaks whether you want it to or not - even if you set the threshold at 0...any peaks will be compressed, because the peaks being received at the master buss will be over 0 - you leave yourself little headroom to play with. You can pull your master fader down, so that the peaks read, let's say,
-3dBFS ...but you're still getting overs at the master buss input. If you're overheating your master input by 3dB, even though you pull down the fader by -3dB and the peaks now read 0dB...you're still sending a signal 3dB too loud into the master buss - the fader is the last thing in the chain.

There's no reason why you have to set it at unity at all, but at least if you do, you know when you're playing around with your master compressor, limiter etc, that you are actually compressing by the numbers it tells you.

Try it out....send a mix so that it clips by 3dB when the master fader is at unity gain. Strap a limiter across the master buss and you'll see it lighting up with 3dB limiting at the peaks. Then pull down your master fader by 3db and turn off the limiter - your master meter will tell you the peaks are now at 0dB. Then switch the limiter back on and even though your peaks are at 0dB, you'll see the limiter still lighting up with 3dB gain control. It's limiting what is received into the master buss, not what is being sent out of it at the fader level.

Sorry if you know this already, but I suspect quite a few don't.

[Left Headphone]

kritikon, Thanks for the information.
I'm trying to learn all that I can.

[kritikon]

hehehehehe....me too. You're never too old to learn. Trouble is nowadays that there's no room up there for the new stuff...whenever I learn summat new, something I learnt a long time ago falls out of the back of my head. It feels like Catch 22 sometimes

[Morgaxx]

hello... Jeez and kritikon make good points. It seems on this forum (maybe the DAW world in general?) there is little talk of concepts/rules such as gain staging, unity gain and the like. When involved with traditional multitracking it is always a matter of having the best/hottest level recorded with all sounding nice using standard references (fader values), as kritikon was saying. On a real console things can get confusing if you have automation without motorized faders and what not. Having all starting points at zero makes life easier.
Ive had digital multitrack recorders (tape) with little marks beside the input controls to show where it should be to = -3db input if the board is running realy high. This way if something happened (you never know) it would be ok. Recording to analog tape, its often best to "pin the needle" and record in the red to make use of the magic of tape compression (the happiest mistake ever?).
This is a wandering colloection of thoughts, but that I think is my point. We have concepts and rules from the old days (analog) blended with the middle ages (big boards/digital tape) and the modern era. This modern age is full (a good thing) of intimate one or two person setups that dont rely on the need for organization and discipline of the old days.
Personaly I feel some traditional wisdom may cloud the reality of todays home recoding. -3db is a good level. Its known that todays recordings are for the most part to loud and laden with flange etc. which all adds to ear/brain stain, that makes it harder to listen to a full cd. "Back then" you had an lp with a shorter playing time, made shorter by high volumes and usage of effects such as flange etc.. Just cuz it can go to 0db all flanged all the time dosnt mean its better.
So... I have to go to bed cuz my mind did all this without me and i just woke up a bit and read all this (yikes). Whatever works for you... dont get confused by history... move in your own way... and leave the master fader at zero... leave you speakers alone if you have volumes on em! (set it and forget it)

[kritikon]

Whatever works for you... dont get confused by history... move in your own way...

That's so true. I still work mostly in ways that I learnt on big desks...and it suits me sir...but DAW audio is so good precisely because most of the time you're not limited to any one method. If you really want to , you can set your master fader to -10dB and run your channels at +3dB (I can't see the point though). You can do it any which way you want.

It's still a good starting point to learn a few basics and stick by them - if only in that it teaches you some of the ins and outs of the whole process that little bit more easily and logically.

But yeah.....I've made decent mixes by recording audio by pressing the "bounce selection" button by mistake instead of exporting and getting perfect levels . I've had .wavs that are so bleedin' small I can't even see to edit them - I didn't mean to do it, and couldn't be bothered correcting them, but it's worked nevertheless

We live in times of great and cheap plenty, and I thank whoever invented cheap music-making stuff with all my heart. I can now f**k up without f**king up so easily...hehehehehe

[Morgaxx]

Thanks kritikon for cystalizing my nebulous thoughts. 'Tis true that with unlimited undo, revert to saved and normalize etc... the process is less rigid. I would agree that some understanding of traditional methods (even in the bedroom)is an asset, especialy when following some of the half accurate discusions around here... seperating the wheat from the chaffe is easy when you atleast have an idea what wheat looks like

[kritikon]

I would agree that some understanding of traditional methods (even in the bedroom)is an asset, especialy when following some of the half accurate discusions around here

What, like the Missionary position? Where do you set the fader on that one?

[_oswald]

I would agree that some understanding of traditional methods (even in the bedroom)is an asset, especialy when following some of the half accurate discusions around here

What, like the Missionary position? Where do you set the fader on that one?

You don't really 'set' the fader so much as ride the fader and monitor the levels.