Making things mono compatible.

[multree]

The thing that seems to be the hardest for me is making a mono compatible mix that doesn’t change too much when switching from stereo to mono.

I usually mix LCR with guitars panned hard left and hard right. And they usually are way too quiet when switching to mono.

My new plan is to mix in mono and then simply pan everything afterwards…. And if there’s anything too loud that’s been hard panned I could try using a mid side processor to lower the sides without changing the mono mix.

At least that’s what My head tells me. Haven’t tested the theory yet.

Have you mastered mono compatibility yet? What was the aha moment? I think I‘m still waiting on mine. Not panning guitars to the left and right might be another solution, but I like it (and in stereo it sounds good)

[chagzuki]

It's an interesting challenge. I've not really done guitar-based mixes, so I'm not sure about that. Generally speaking, I think of it in terms of what I want to retain and lose in a mono mix, i.e. there's a hierarchy of elements, and it's necessary for some elements to drop in volume in order for the key elements to fit in the frequency space in mono. I often EQ the mid channel specifically to resolve mono-compatibility issues.

In the past I've had some trouble with pads disappearing too much, and then one either has to redesign the patch or try something like boosting the low mids of the pads in the middle channel. Generally speaking it's useful for ambient reverbs to substantially disappear in mono, to preserve clarity.

Do hard panned guitars sound good on headphones? I tend to find that panning parts far out contradicts the evocation of space that reverb creates, and so I prefer to use the reverb to create the impression of scale while keeping most elements somewhat closer to centre. That sort of approach works well on headphones, though I'm not sure what's ideal for headphones is ideal for speakers, and so finding a compromise there is another challenge.

[multree]

I'm using CanOpener and Morphit on headphones and ARC X on speakers - so hard panned guitars still sound nice on headphones (to be honest I always liked them that way even before I used a crossfeed plug-in like CanOpener).

I tend not to use reverb at all on guitars just some very reduced reverb on the vocals, nowadays it's only a delay on the vocals. and not much else. (you can listen here if you like: https://fallowdeerfawn.bandcamp.com/alb ... an-hoorays).

[chagzuki]

I had a listen, and indeed, the guitars don't come across as pushed way out. On the contrary, if anything, the mix sounds a little narrow to me (but I'm accustomed to electronic mixes with a strong emphasis on stereo width).

Dan Worrall did a video on exactly this subject a few years back, and I think his solution was to use some haas effect trickery. I've never managed to find a use for haas panning in what I do.

The other thing that first struck me about your mix was that I wanted a bit more frequency separation between voice and guitars. I've worked on metal tracks in the past but never got them to a finished stage, and never hit on a method for deciding how to fit vocals and distorted guitars together (which both occupy a massive frequency range).

In your position, as an experiment I would EQ the guitars and vocals in mono, and see if there's a way to emphasise the most important frequencies of both. If it turns out that in mono a narrow EQ band of the guitars is sufficient to convey the feel of the guitars, then it might be possible to pan that frequency band closer to centre and therefore be louder in mono.

[multree]

Will go looking for the Dan Worrall video. Haas is fine and dandy but I always thought that delay panning is NOT mono compatible. At least it's less compatible than level or spectral panning. Anyway... my main problem doesn't seem to be phase cancelation but simply reduced volume of the hard panned instruments.

I have made some initial tests and when I mix in mono and then hard pan, the hard panned instruments are indeed to loud. But when I reduce the volume in the sides with a MidSide processor the mono mix doesn't/shouldn't change at all.

[chagzuki]

Will go looking for the Dan Worrall video. Haas is fine and dandy but I always thought that delay panning is NOT mono compatible.

Ah, I think I remember the trickery. He used different settings for each guitar so that the comb filtering created in mono via the haas effect actually created extra clarity in the guitars. I.e. the frequencies cancelled in each guitar were supposed to complement each other. I don't know if the end result would be good enough, definitely worth a try though.

[Agg]

My new plan is to mix in mono and then simply pan everything afterwards…. And if there’s anything too loud that’s been hard panned I could try using a mid side processor to lower the sides without changing the mono mix.

At least that’s what My head tells me. Haven’t tested the theory yet.

If you mix in mono until it sounds good, you need to use the correct pan law, or you'll be reducing gain in the center when you start panning (can't ever remember which one it is sry).

What was the aha moment?

There wasn't one, but the "right ok I guess" moment was buying Knife Party's - Rage Valley EP from Beatport in lossless format, and listening to it in side only (instead of the mono, you hear everything that does NOT exist in mono). It's EDM, which isn't popular here, but it's a great learning opportunity if you're interested in the techy side of things, because you know natural, "simple" methods like double-tracked real instruments are out of the picture. It didn't really increase my motivation however, more like a reality check.

Not panning guitars to the left and right might be another solution, but I like it (and in stereo it sounds good)

Iirc a mixing engineer for Linkin Park said in some video they used quad-tracked guitars. Hard pan left, hard pan right, dead center, and the last one 100% out of phase (no center at all).

Will go looking for the Dan Worrall video. Haas is fine and dandy but I always thought that delay panning is NOT mono compatible.

Yup. It's still used a lot because people don't care, but it sounds horrible in mono if used too much. Then again there are plenty of methods that sound terrible in solo left, or solo right. Some of the plugins do just this. They sound good in mono, which is supposed to be the selling point, but if you solo left or right, you'll realize they basically cheated. Now it's just one individual speaker that sounds bad (or both of them to a lesser degree). Everything that is "somewhat" mono compatible, can also be routed so that it sounds perfect in mono, but horrible if you only hear L or R. Ideally all 3 should sound decent.

[Ah_Dziz]

I find that the sides (anything out of phase) should be mostly the effects of the lead and then the "depth of the rhythm section. I've found that mixing with the sides turned off takes away lots of distractions. I'll turn them on again when I'm done composing and ready to polish things up. This makes everything I'm doing mono compatible and makes problems with the sides very obvious.

[apan]

I quite like subtle spectral or phase panning. If LCR is your default you could play around with sending to an aux panned to opposite side low volume to the opposite channel, and roll of some top end (emulating "head shadow") and and play around with a high passan allpass filter in the low mids (sort of like "Haas light"). (A practical setup is using an aux for all tracks that wants this teatment, with L/R flipped). I find it can give a nice 3d effect and help in mono, because it gives a bit more volume while attenuating highs and low mids, which tends to become a bit cluttered in the mono fold. Perhaps not for heavier stuff (?) but worth a try if you're going for atmosphere and space.

[Benedict]

The thing that seems to be the hardest for me is making a mono compatible mix that doesn’t change too much when switching from stereo to mono.

I usually mix LCR with guitars panned hard left and hard right. And they usually are way too quiet when switching to mono.

Stereo, esp the way people start with it and then stereoize their stereo stereoness, does feel like it loses a lot in mono. It is not going to sound the same. The Q is: does the Scene & Story of the Song still work (hint stereo is not all of that).

Why not mix in mono as you suggest, only do all the panning whilst in mono too. Then swap to stereo. If there are big differences, either you are facing issues with clutter, or lack thereof - OR you have a Pan Law that does something like adds 3dB as you pan out. Not uncommon. Some DAWS (like Reason) have this locked in, some DAWs (like Reaper) let you choose. Neither is right, simply understand what you have. If it is +3dB, then as you pan out, slide back that fader.

[imrae]

Making a mix sound great in both mono and stereo is a compromise; most techniques do not sum perfectly to mono and that is ok. I really like Slick EQ M for making gentle adjustments and dialling in these trade-offs.
Often the best place to put stereo information is the low-mids: these add a lot of "physical space" to the stereo mix while in the mono mix they vanish to scoop out some boxiness and improve clarity.

[Zeisner]

For panned electric guitars I like to use a mixture of ILD and ITD. I tune the ITD-based comb filtering in mono first and then add ILD to move the guitar along the stereo line until I'm satisfied. It's like an additional cabinet room record effect when played back in mono, it also leaves more spectral space for center guitars to cut through. In general I treat mono versions like a party mix for bad speakers in bad environments while the stereo version is mixed for audiophiles.

[chagzuki]

For panned electric guitars I like to use a mixture of ILD and ITD. I tune the ITD-based comb filtering in mono first and then add ILD to move the guitar along the stereo line until I'm satisfied. It's like an additional cabinet room record effect when played back in mono, it also leaves more spectral space for center guitars to cut through. In general I treat mono versions like a party mix for bad speakers in bad environments while the stereo version is mixed for audiophiles.

Do you have an example online?
I wonder whether haas-type panning gets somewhat lost on speakers once room reflections are added?
What guitar parts are panned centre?

[Zeisner]

Do you have an example online?

I could make one. Do you know a website where I can upload (short) uncompressed WAV files without registration?

I wonder whether haas-type panning gets somewhat lost on speakers once room reflections are added?

I have never experienced that, quite the opposite. You're giving the human ear more of what it actually wants, we humans evolved to use a combination of ILD and ITD for precise sound localization.

What guitar parts are panned centre?

Usually the lead but that's up to you.

[whassup]

For panned electric guitars I like to use a mixture of ILD and ITD. I tune the ITD-based comb filtering in mono first and then add ILD to move the guitar along the stereo line until I'm satisfied. It's like an additional cabinet room record effect when played back in mono, it also leaves more spectral space for center guitars to cut through. In general I treat mono versions like a party mix for bad speakers in bad environments while the stereo version is mixed for audiophiles.

What is ILD and ITD?