Mixing on Headphones: Love it, hate it? 🎧

[_leras]

Just curious, are any of you using headphone correction systems, like SonarWorks, Neumann RIME, Waves NX, CanOpener, etc.? I'm considering the SonarWorks system, especially now that it integrates with my Apollos and on sale.

A guy on GS recommended using Crave EQ and the oratory headphone correction curves that you can find if you google.

He was right, the adjust well and get a really natural room equivalent EQ wise.

I sometimes use the Waves NX Ocean Way with their mains. That pretty neutral EQ wise and does a great room simulation. I mainly only use this for checking for issues.

[Cavey Arrgh]

Does anyone else refuse listen to mixes on phones and laptops out of principle? Ie, if people are going to listen on speakers that bad, they deserve a bad listening experience? :-p

Does that help your mixes?

.

I was mostly joking, but yes it can. If the mix sounds the way I want on reasonable playback devices like real speakers, decent headphones and car stereos, but needs an adjustment to sound a certain way on laughable phone/laptop speakers, and that adjustment would diminish the sound on the decent speakers. People who listen on phone/laptop are just not going to be able to hear the subtleties anyway, so why mix for them? That's a rhetorical question. I'm not going to waste time on an argument here.

Ps, I'm talking about tweaks, not cases where something is drastically off on any given device.

[cryophonik]

I like checking my mixes on my Apple earbuds, primarily to see if my high-end hearing was fatigued/out of whack when I finalized the mix. I don't rely on them for the overall mix, but those little earbuds do an excellent job of highlighting high-end harshness.

[cryophonik]

I sometimes use the Waves NX Ocean Way with their mains. That pretty neutral EQ wise and does a great room simulation. I mainly only use this for checking for issues.

Interesting. I've owned the standard Waves NX plugin for years, but sorta forgot about it. I loaded it up last night after seeing your post and was pleasantly surprised at how flexible it was. So, I installed the demos of the other NX plugins (including Ocean Way) and tested them on several commercial reference tracks with my K701s, K240s, DT880s, and DT700 Pro X's and was pretty impressed with many of the different room configurations. I think I'm going to grab the upgrade to the full NX suite while it's on sale. Like you, I think I'd use it primarily for checking mixes on my K701s (my go-tos), but many of the models improved the sound of my DT880s (my secondary mixing cans) so much that I'd probably use it in real time with them.

In contrast, I tried the Sonarworks demo a few days ago just before the sale ended and was not impressed at all. My reference tracks already sound pretty good on my K701s, but SW turned every one of them into a muddy mess, killed all definition, and for some inexplicable reason, dropped the level pretty substantially. That was a bummer because I loved the idea of installing it directly on my Apollos and having a separate profile for each headphone output. Oh well...

[_leras]

Interesting. I've owned the standard Waves NX plugin for years, but sorta forgot about it. I loaded it up last night after seeing your post and was pleasantly surprised at how flexible it was. So, I installed the demos of the other NX plugins (including Ocean Way) and tested them on several commercial reference tracks with my K701s, K240s, DT880s, and DT700 Pro X's and was pretty impressed with many of the different room configurations. I think I'm going to grab the upgrade to the full NX suite while it's on sale. Like you, I think I'd use it primarily for checking mixes on my K701s (my go-tos), but many of the models improved the sound of my DT880s (my secondary mixing cans) so much that I'd probably use it in real time with them.

I've tried a few nx, ocean way seemed the most natural and seems to pick up room bass resonance well. Others I felt the rooms were ok but probably affected overall EQ a bit.

I do use a.separate headphone EQ.curve though as I think waves didn't have it for my dt1990 headphones (and I use -10db utility after these to ensure levels don't clip.

I think no EQ curve is perfect but the oratory one, for me, just seemwd like a natural room equivalent as Is expect things to sound and things have translated really well from it. :Tu:

[_leras]

Interesting. I've owned the standard Waves NX plugin for years, but sorta forgot about it. I loaded it up last night after seeing your post and was pleasantly surprised at how flexible it was. So, I installed the demos of the other NX plugins (including Ocean Way) and tested them on several commercial reference tracks with my K701s, K240s, DT880s, and DT700 Pro X's and was pretty impressed with many of the different room configurations. I think I'm going to grab the upgrade to the full NX suite while it's on sale. Like you, I think I'd use it primarily for checking mixes on my K701s (my go-tos), but many of the models improved the sound of my DT880s (my secondary mixing cans) so much that I'd probably use it in real time with them.

I've tried a few nx, ocean way seemed the most natural and seems to pick up room bass resonance well. Others I felt the rooms were ok but probably affected overall EQ a bit.

I do use a.separate headphone EQ.curve though as I think waves didn't have it for my dt1990 headphones (and I use -10db utility after these to ensure levels don't clip.

I think no EQ curve is perfect but the oratory one, for me, just seemwd like a natural room equivalent as Is expect things to sound and things have translated really well from it.

[rACatkvr]

Does anyone else refuse listen to mixes on phones and laptops out of principle? Ie, if people are going to listen on speakers that bad, they deserve a bad listening experience? :-p

And what exactly does this have to do with the question?

[Igro]

Maybe not exactly on topic, but I'd like to ask the folks who have BD DT 770 Pro. Does anybody have a problem, where turning the head righ or left affects the perceived sound, like there is a phase shift going on? Interesting, but I don't have such a problem with DT 880 Pro. Of course this may depend on the head size. My head is small. So probably when turning the head, there is a micro gap between the jaw and the pad causing this shift. DT 880 Pro probably doesn't have this problem due to its semi-open nature.

[Agg]

Maybe not exactly on topic, but I'd like to ask the folks who have BD DT 770 Pro. Does anybody have a problem, where turning the head righ or left affects the perceived sound, like there is a phase shift going on? Interesting, but I don't have such a problem with DT 880 Pro. Of course this may depend on the head size. My head is small. So probably when turning the head, there is a micro gap between the jaw and the pad causing this shift. DT 880 Pro probably doesn't have this problem due to its semi-open nature.

That's kinda the issue with closed-backs. You either need to go full pressure zero gap, or "break" them by placing them around a cardboard box or a pile of books or something, so over time they bend, and become semi-closed altogether (which also changes the frequency response).

My head can't stand closed-backs anymore for some reason, so I've gone through doing this to all my closed-backs. My DT 770s are basically open back now. They'll almost fall off my head if I lean forward to remove an usb cable.

On a side note, I'd not recommend Beyerdynamics to anyone anymore (not that my opinion has any value, but the BD treble spike is just absurd).

[jamcat]

I mix on headphones a lot, out of convenience, since I work exclusively on MacBook and don’t have to be stuck at a desk anymore.

The most important thing is you’re going to NEED open-back over-ear headphones. Not just for the sake of your mixes, but more importantly for the sake of your hearing. I use Sennheiser HD 650s.

I clean them up with ARC X, using a custom profile I made. For straight correction, it doesn’t really matter if you use ARC, Sonarworx, Reaphones, Morphit, etc. I’ve tried them all and they all sound pretty much the same. I just happen to own ARC already. To make an ARC profile of your headphones, just ball up a head-sized wad of t-shirts and tape the ARC mic to the side, then place the headphones over it. You’ll need to set your audio output to mono before you start measuring.

Finally, I correct the stereo image with Goodhertz CanOpener. I tried just about every option out there, and this is the one that sounds totally natural.

And here’s the secret: leave CanOpener on for mixdown. As it’s been pointed out, most people are listening on earbuds, so they will get the benefit. And it really doesn’t change the sound on speakers noticeably, since it’s already mimicking the sound of speakers in the room.

[Igro]

Maybe not exactly on topic, but I'd like to ask the folks who have BD DT 770 Pro. Does anybody have a problem, where turning the head righ or left affects the perceived sound, like there is a phase shift going on? Interesting, but I don't have such a problem with DT 880 Pro. Of course this may depend on the head size. My head is small. So probably when turning the head, there is a micro gap between the jaw and the pad causing this shift. DT 880 Pro probably doesn't have this problem due to its semi-open nature.

That's kinda the issue with closed-backs. You either need to go full pressure zero gap, or "break" them by placing them around a cardboard box or a pile of books or something, so over time they bend, and become semi-closed altogether (which also changes the frequency response).

My head can't stand closed-backs anymore for some reason, so I've gone through doing this to all my closed-backs. My DT 770s are basically open back now. They'll almost fall off my head if I lean forward to remove an usb cable.

On a side note, I'd not recommend Beyerdynamics to anyone anymore (not that my opinion has any value, but the BD treble spike is just absurd).

I have also Audio-Technika m50x. They are closed back. They don't have this problem, but that's due to their clamping force and the x-axis. But yeah, now I avoid any closed-back headphones too. They are good for casual listening, but not for long sessions, especially during the summer time (ears can easily overheat).

[jamcat]

The problem with closedback headphones is they build up air pressure in your ears, with no escape route, which is damaging to you hearing. Earbuds are the absolute worst for you. The longer your exposure, the worse it is.

This is why you want openback if you are going to be mixing or listening for any length of time. Also pay attention to ear fatigue: it is a warning sign.

[Agg]

The problem with closedback headphones is they build up air pressure in your ears, with no escape route, which is damaging to you hearing. Earbuds are the absolute worst for you. The longer your exposure, the worse it is.

This is why you want openback if you are going to be mixing or listening for any length of time. Also pay attention to ear fatigue: it is a warning sign.

I wanna say you can "gamble" with closed-backs, but yeah in any normal scenario this is 100% true. I have Hifiman Sundara closed-backs, which don't have a plastic structure. The headband is metal, so it was easy to bend them to apply less pressure. They are my most comfy pair of headphones, more so than DT 880, which are open back. They aren't on par with the open-back Sundaras for soundstage (or any real high-end cans for that matter), but they still represent pink noise curve a lot better than any of my other cans. I have a systemwide EQ with with a tiny dip at 10k and a small, bell-like high shelf boost at 19k, and listening to edm/metal/dnb/instrumentals on them is a lot of fun.

[Agg]

Maybe not exactly on topic, but I'd like to ask the folks who have BD DT 770 Pro. Does anybody have a problem, where turning the head righ or left affects the perceived sound, like there is a phase shift going on? Interesting, but I don't have such a problem with DT 880 Pro. Of course this may depend on the head size. My head is small. So probably when turning the head, there is a micro gap between the jaw and the pad causing this shift. DT 880 Pro probably doesn't have this problem due to its semi-open nature.

That's kinda the issue with closed-backs. You either need to go full pressure zero gap, or "break" them by placing them around a cardboard box or a pile of books or something, so over time they bend, and become semi-closed altogether (which also changes the frequency response).

My head can't stand closed-backs anymore for some reason, so I've gone through doing this to all my closed-backs. My DT 770s are basically open back now. They'll almost fall off my head if I lean forward to remove an usb cable.

On a side note, I'd not recommend Beyerdynamics to anyone anymore (not that my opinion has any value, but the BD treble spike is just absurd).

I have also Audio-Technika m50x. They are closed back. They don't have this problem, but that's due to their clamping force and the x-axis. But yeah, now I avoid any closed-back headphones too. They are good for casual listening, but not for long sessions, especially during the summer time (ears can easily overheat).

I have m50x gathering dust in the corner too, and agree with everything. They are like a person trying to squeeze your head into a pancake. I consider them unfixable. The fake leather on the pads will eventually disintegrate too.

Regardless of open-back vs. closed-back, only headphones worth several hundreds for imo, are over-ear ones. If they are closed you can still adjust them, but like Jamcat said, open-backs are the way to go (if you have a decent budget unlike me lol I'm broke).

[Wriggle]

Interestingly Amphion have produce the X range of monitors to sound closer to the headphone listening experience because so many listeners are listening on headphones. I have the older Two18 and Flexbase 25 - quite why you would drop that amount of money to sound closer to headphones when you could pick up a pair of calibrated headphones is beyond me. Family work changes have meant I have to wait till later in the day to put the HPs away so I am getting more used to them. RME now has crossfeed settings for HPs which helps immensely. It is certainly much better than Sonarworks Virtual Monitoring add-on.

HPs do seem to be the direction of travel and they are a useful tool but I wouldn't want to give up monitors completely.