Rick Rubin on AI (& now Graeme Revell, too)

[VOODOO U]

Another sub genre of punk is hip-hop. It doesn't get more punk than that. Dudes couldn't play any instruments let alone afford them so what do they use? Turntables. They didn't give a f**k what other musicians were using and they didn't give a f**k that turntables - as instruments - play other peoples work (Copyright infringment).
Dudes couldn't sing worth shit but they didn't give a f**k. Know what they did? They talked. It's called rapping. They talked about real issues and dealings living life on the streets predominantly in the U.S.
Well that and about gettin' down to the groove man let your ass move cause the beat is tight yea let's do it all night yadda yadda blah blah.
To add to what was played on turntables they had drum machines (probably stolen - they didn't give a f**k) and if they didn't have drum machines, they didn't give a f**k, know why? Cause they would just use their mouths. It's called beat boxing. No labels wanted them, no radio wanted them, no problem.....shoot your way in. Start threatening. They had the guns and the man-power from the streets to get their way in. It doesn't get more punk than that. In fact that makes punk rockers seem like silver spoon brats (and I'm pretty sure many of them were).

[Aloysius]

You could probably call everyone PUNK at this stage. The PUNK thing was partly about 'doing it yourself'. That's what most people are doing these days. No record label.

[vurt]

You could probably call everyone PUNK at this stage. The PUNK thing was partly about 'doing it yourself'. That's what most people are doing these days. No record label.

no, diy is a separate thing, even if a lot of punks did employ diy.
punk is not a music genre, punk is an ethos, punk rock was the music.
it's about ignoring trends and doing your own thing.
which is what killed punk rock, as it did become a trend, post punk faired better, as eg pil don't sound like magazine or the stranglers... acts that did their own thing, in some cases from album to album even.


hip hop isn't punk, again there's a diy connection, but the ethos is again different, was started out as local block parties, the politicization came later. to say there's no skill to turntablism is so daft a notion, ill do nowt but laugh

[BONES]

AI work never stands on its own.

Several surveys have shown that most people can't tell the difference, which suggests it definitely does.

It stands on the average of everyone else's work.

The same it true of any of us. We all take inspiration from the music we listen to. Anyone who says they don't is completely full of shit.

It's this era's Muzak, and yes 50,000 new AI-generated tracks are now uploaded daily, up from 10,000 a day just one year ago, so you are totally on-trend, per usual!

How many non-AI tracks are uploaded per day? Why aren't you concerned about those as well? It's not like you're actually making any of your own music to compete with any of it, are you, so why would you care? If anything, it could be seen as proof of what Rubin is saying. Of course, it's not, because it's being done specifically to try and make money by people with no interest in music. That will pass, though, because even 50,000 listens a day isn't enough to make it worth the effort. Unless some of it is actually good enough that people will want to listen to it on a regular basis. Unlikely, though.

This is a ridiculous statement that disregards the whole of folk music. People were learning a handful of chords and expressing their feelings for hundreds (likely thousands?) of years before punk rock came along.

That's an interesting point but, if you think about it, the vast majority of people would never have been able to afford an instrument, let alone find the time to learn to play it, so it was probably still a pretty exclusive club.

By myself, in my cubicle, I write the prompts to make a few of the 50,000 AI songs released today that are not performed by a real band and that I can’t play. So how am I punk?

You're not because you don't have the attitude to be punk. Punk is about attitude and plenty of reviews of our work comment on it's "punkness", even though we're 100% electronic. It's about attitude and yours is extremely conservative.

[ksandvik]

I'm maybe wrong but punk was against establishment, not about Silicon valley tech-bros trying to make a quick buck on the current AI/LLM bubble.

[TheMaestro]

I can‘t believe that I agree with that draft-dodging, pederastic, pentatonic wannabe, cool wannabe, mouthbreather.

I don't agree with Bones.

[BertKoor]

> punk is not a music genre, punk is an ethos

True that. I remember the black + fluorescant striped skinny jeans only True Punks wore, they spitted on anything commercial and sheepish behaviour.

Then it turned out the shops which sold this clothing (life) style was no different from other clothing brands with a specific demographic audience. iirc it was Malcolm McLaren who profited most from the pocket money spent by young punks, selling not only records but also clothes & safety pins. Sheep behaviour, ironically.

[vurt]

I can‘t believe that I agree with that draft-dodging, pederastic, pentatonic wannabe, cool wannabe, mouthbreather.

I don't agree with Bones.

bones was an officer. in a real army too, not just a table top battle game army, like me with my undead army.

[VOODOO U]

You could probably call everyone PUNK at this stage. The PUNK thing was partly about 'doing it yourself'. That's what most people are doing these days. No record label.

The difference now with artists/bands going the diy route is it's so easy and accessible thanks to the internet. It's not a punk thing it's just johnny working at the donut shop writing some tunes, posting them up on soundcloud and saying "hi guys!" on facebook.
Pre-internet days, going the diy route was a whole other wild beast. It was really hard hustling and that was mainly for those looking to get signed.
Most artists and bands back then, with a punk mentality, didn't give a f**k about records and radio. If they got a deal so what. They lived, breathed., ate and f**ked being on the road playing whatever came out of their pipes and bongs. It's like Deadheads who live breath eat and f**k everything Grateful Dead. Living off of VW buses selling mushrooms and hippy art. Very punk.
It's a ballsy lifestyle that personally I couldn't do. I'm 100% sellout. I want all number ones and everything expensive on the.menu. if I can't get booked on David Letterman and Ellen Degeneres then get me a better label with better marketing. If Madonna won't f**k me make me look prettier.

Several surveys

You go by what surveys say?? That's so not punk.

[Bombadil]

Cultural trends that may upset the order of things are usually assimilated as fashion, and their adherents usually co-opted by socio-economic realities. Punk is one example. Hippie fashion is another. Those of us at a certain age can remember everything turning 'Groovy' long after the hippy trend. As a kid, I can remember watching TV and the people still looked like they were from the 50's.
I always accepted the ethos of punk. I just disdained the musicianship.

[Michael L]

A non-musician on reddit posted how he crafted a punk album using AI for a few hours each evening over two weeks. He wrote the lyrics and polished them using ChatGPT, made the music using Suno, made music videos using Midjourney, and a band logo using Dall-E 3. He said it's important to be transparent if your "music" is made using AI.

[vurt]

[Michael L]

plenty of reviews of our work comment on it's "punkness", even though we're 100% electronic. It's about attitude

I imagine those reviews were from your "pre-AI" era.
I wonder if reviewers still think your AI songs have "punkness," or if they think using AI for punk songs automatically disqualifies those songs from having a "punk attitude" due to the exploitative nature of AI LLMs, its ethos of conformity, and its control by the most 'establishment' politicians and billionaires -- or does uttering the voodoo spell, "I don't give a fukk about all that" magically make you punk again ?

[BONES]

Not exactly. We've been using AI for the past two albums, mostly for lyrical ideas but we used AI generated vocals on one track from our 2024 album and no-one seemed to mind, or even notice. I even let the AI do the vox when we play it live.

I can't see us having any of the fully AI stuff ready before Easter, for a mid-year release. My prediction, though, is that it will do much better than anything we've done before, as long as we can get people to listen to it. It's better than anything we've done before and, as far as I can tell, it is be more accessible, too (but I don't really have the slightest idea about why people like what they like so I can't judge that).

Anyway, I got some disappointing news from my bandmate this morning. He tells me there is a new version of Tunee out and it is much harder to get anything worthwhile from. I found the same with Midjourney for images. in the early days it had a specific look and feel. It was obviously AI generated but the style really worked for me. Now it does stuff that is far less interesting to me but far more commercial. And that's the problem I see with AI - like any commercial venture, it will seek out the biggest part of the market and tailor what it does to that demographic, at the expense of everything else. You might call it "averaging out" but I don't think that's what it is. I think it is the simple capitalist imperative of maximising your market share.

[Michael L]

And that's the problem I see with AI - like any commercial venture, it will seek out the biggest part of the market and tailor what it does to that demographic, at the expense of everything else. You might call it "averaging out" but I don't think that's what it is. I think it is the simple capitalist imperative of maximising your market share.

I also see that problem with AI, and what I call "averaging out" cuz the biggest share is the math "average" and the "out" is everything else.

That is what I call the 'ultimate conformity' ethos underlying AI and its so interesting you are watching it happen in real time!

Rick Rubin would think "maximising market share" is good because it leads to more hit songs!