DAC - the example of Korg Trinity VST

[frag]

Some people still believe DAC is not important part of digital synth sound.

Finally, we have a solution to this issue:
1) Download Korg Trinity VST demo.
2) Open Options.
3) Turn off DAC emulation. Play. Turn on DAC emulation. Play.

Unless you're deaf, or use Sound Blaster from 1998, you'll see the difference between "clean" DSP code and final output is HUGE on Trinity. I think we can trust Korg engineers on this one.

This is precisely why I don't like using DSP56300 emulators in projects. They don't feel like real instruments. Virus TI becomes an ordinary VSTi. Sure, something like PSP VintageWarmer could fix this, even the very simple TAL-DAC, but it still doesn't feel right.
I suspect Korg Triton also has DAC emulator which can't be bypassed - the plugin sounds great, just like hardware. I'm not sure about Multi/Poly. Diva obviously doesn't need this.

Some VSTi programmers persistently make this error when they emulate hardware synths. First, they use generic filter and oscillator templates, which is already bad and deprives the synth of any character. It's usable in the mix, but quite uninspiring on its own. Still, that's not enough! They also try to emulate hardware synth using filters and synth parameters only, without proper DAC emulator at the end of signal path. So the user is left with unfinished product which he may or may not fix using plugin inserts in the mix.
Basically, it's not only DAC - it's the DSP, PCB, connectors, cables etc. which all affect the sound in digital synth. It's not just "DSP code".

I suspect this is why I prefer 8000 V to JE-8086 or Airwave. Arturia did the entire signal path properly, so I can simply sit down and play the instrument without additional processing. Strangely, this the is only Arturia synth which I'm really interested in...
I hope the author of "SWAYED" or whatever it's called, won't make the same mistake. SY77/TG77 is a very, very interesting instrument, but the solo preset samples from VST plugin sound quite generic. You can fix this in the mix, but it's very important that the instrument itself is inspiring and fascinating when you play it using hands. This is how great music begins.

I hope this helps!

[EvilDragon]

There is no DAC emulation in Swayed.

It's basically just an EQ tweak, nothing else. The difference is not as huge as you make it, even on Trinity plugin. (Triton plugin also has the option, and I leave it off really because I can EQ my own shit.) In a mix you do this anyways, nobody will ever notice if you used the DAC option or not.

PCB, connectors and ribbon cables inside of a digital synth absolutely don't affect the sound of it.

They don't feel like real instruments. Virus TI becomes an ordinary VSTi.

Frankly, this is bullshit. An instrument is what you make of it. Plenty of shootouts have confirmed the sound is absolutely there.

[sergiofrias]

i would just use tal-dac in it really can give you that sound with the right settings.

[EvilDragon]

TAL-DAC is more for emulating vintage samplers from the 80s, the DAC in Trinity is a 90s contraption, it is a lot cleaner. Trinity is a 24-bit engine going into a 20-bit DAC (Philips TDA1305).

[VariKusBrainZ]

Slap a dynamic saturator, eq, compressor, tape emu on the output. Season to taste

[EvilDragon]

The thing is, modern DACs aren't really introducing noticeable saturation or compression (ideally all that stuff is at or below -100 dBFS). They are very transparent. In Trinity case, the DAC rolls off the very highs above 18k, that's all. That's not even due to the TDA1305 chip, it's due to the lowpass filters AFTER them (see service manual). I am not sure why they used separate LPFs post-DAC, because TDA1305 has built in filtering...

Also, I remember some people getting confused back when Trinity plugin was originally released, about when is the button on or off. Dark blue means it's ON (you will see top end rolled off in a spectrum analyzer).

[sergiofrias]

to emulate in tal dac use this settings:
volume:2.30 db (yes ,it gives a volume boost,nice trick korg )
SR:45530 hz
mode:variable
(this does generate a small harmonic ,but is very clean)
or for very clean results,like EvilDragon said just use a low pass filter ,but you have to give a boost of 2.5 db
(in flstudio set parametric eq2 band 7 to lowpass,steep 4,20khz,main level 2.5db)
thank me latter

[EvilDragon]

Hehe.

[zvenx]

Well Clearly I am deaf, cause I am not sure I can hear the three differences in Triton and Triton Extreme between Digital, Classic and Studio.
rsp

[EvilDragon]

You can see them on spectrum analyzer. It's all about the top end.

[Captain]

I just had to test this myself by comparing noise, sine & some other waveforms from Trinity with and without the DAC emulation. Seems that the virtual DAC:
- Boosts the volume by a bit over 2 dB
- Adds a latency of about 30 samples
- Adds a slight high cut
- Is 100% linear, so no added harmonics or anything that reacts to the sound

So basically what was already said earlier in the thread. Could be just a FIR filter. And definitely it's not doing anything super magical.

[mcbpete]

In Trinity case, the DAC rolls off the very highs above 18k, that's all

Wowzers - 18k ?! Not even back in my teenage and non-highpitched-tinnitus years could I hear anything even close to that high - highest I got to that was 16khz 'line-stage' of TV transformers. I remember thinking I could hear it when playing back high-pitched resampled notes in a software sampler - but I now know it was just terrible aliasing artefacts.

[NAD]

Seems that the virtual DAC [...] boosts the volume by a bit over 2 dB

I noticed this as well, guessing that's the main thing contributing to any perceptible sound differences.

[Captain]

I noticed this as well, guessing that's the main thing contributing to any perceptible sound differences.

Yeah, it's funny how your ears deceive you, even when you know how it works. Before doing any actual tests, I just played different presets and kept switching the DAC simulation on and off, and I was _sure_ it added something in the lower mids.

[Najimad]

First time I hear someone praising Arturia emu or prefering it over other emus, they always disappointed me, just trying to sound nice is not enough, not sure as far as 8000 is concerned, cuz don't need it. There are 1.541 plugins that make you shape a sound to your needs btw.