Loops wrong BPM??

[DHR53]

Question?... I have some drum loops from a company that are in .aif and .wav format... they are stated to be BPMs from 80-160 in various styles. I've been importing them into Live, and not paying much nattention to their actual BPM... But after importing them into Logic 7, I noticed that they were coming in short to the nearest bar, although the tempo was set correctly in Logic... So I opened them in DSP Quatro and checked their BPM, and sure enough, they ain't exactly what they're supposed to be! Like 100.97, 85.67, etc. So is this a timing disrepency between the PC and Mac, or Logic and Cubase (on the PC), or just a bad job of creating the loops to an accurate time?? Hmmm!

[Bassballjg]

Hey, Dan. Really, it's probably just a naming issue, sometimes you just round up or down to the nearest bpm when naming files. Another aspect is whether or not Logic can load the clips as loops causing them to snap to the project tempo. I know that it would do so with rex files, but I thought that in 7 you can load Acid wav. How hard is it to stretch them to fit? Or is it easier to change the project tempo instead. I'm an ex PC 5.51 guy so I have Logic rust.

[mauseoleum]

Zero-G by any chance? had funny tempo-readings with some of theirs.

I came to conclusion that raw source audio file might be different original tempo than what comes with editing in the slice/tempo etc. data when i.e. they're acidized.

... them cheatin' bastards

[DHR53]

Well, it's not a naming issue, because they are labeled 100, 105, 110 etc. and there are a lot of variations, for instance, 5 or more of each drum setup... And they ARE close, just off enough that they don't match up end to end in Logic... like, 105.97, which of course, I can change by stretching, but that's a lot of work for 1.2 gigs of samples... I'm sort of surprised that this is an issue? Either I never noticed it before, or they just didn't bother to make sure the loops were an exact BPM measurement?? Sort of a pain, because I like these loops, and I have a ton of em... Which I've been using a lot lately... But just adds another step, to the process! And like I said, I wonder if there is some variation between the apps... Logic and Cuabse?

[Paradroid]

I wonder if there is some variation between the apps... Logic and Cuabse?

I would think it much more likely that some of the loops are cut a little short/long rather than the sequencers having a difference of opinion.

As already mentioned, these small differences aren't a problem when using a timestretching app like ACID.

[Bassballjg]

What I meant was, when I'm creating a loop, I will round the bpm in the name of the file up or down. So I don't think that the makers of these loops have done anything wrong in calling a 100.97 wav file loopX_101 bpm. As loops they should be meant to snap into place when their markers are read after being placed in a track.

Come to think of it, I think I read something about a bug in Logic about importing non-Appleloops loops and having them not snap to tempo correctly. But this is a dim memory of something read in passing, I just don't keep up with Logic much anymore. But since you say that this doesn't happen when using the loops in Live, wouldn't this be a Logic problem and not a fault in manufacture? Logic seems to be treating them as plain wav files wheras Live is correctly perceiving them as loops.

[DHR53]

Well Live automatically stretches everything, so it doesn't matter what the tempo is... Logic on the other hand, just reads the loop info, and says: "the loop starts here, and ends here" so-to-speak... I wish I still had SX for the Mac, I could check em' out... but, if I say stretch to the nearest bar in Logic, it won't adjust for the small amount... Only stretch to markers will work! ...on that small variation that is... More weirdness! Makes me want to use Reason... all the time!

[Bassballjg]

Well Live automatically stretches everything, so it doesn't matter what the tempo is... Logic on the other hand, just reads the loop info, and says: "the loop starts here, and ends here" so-to-speak... I wish I still had SX for the Mac, I could check em' out... but, if I say stretch to the nearest bar in Logic, it won't adjust for the small amount... Only stretch to markers will work! ...on that small variation that is... More weirdness! Makes me want to use Reason... all the time!

I think it's something about a host interpeting a given piece of audio as being just that event of that duration, even relative to project tempo, or as a "loop", meat to snap to grid and tempo. Last night I was working with the loops you did for me in Sonar, and what made the difference in the phenomenon you have been discussing for me was whether I loaded the file from the import audio command or from the loop browser. Loaded as simple audio, it would be mismatched to the grid. Loaded as a loop, everything snapped right into place. Live and Acid, being loop based apps do this to "clips" automatically on loading.

Interestingly, in working with some of my loops for Classic Beatbox a few days earlier, it turned out that some of them, due to inattention to MIDI timing when I made them, resolved in front rather than at the end; that is the rest resolving the beat was at the beginning rather than at the end of the clip. Clearly unuseable. So what I had to do was trim the silence at the beginning of the clip, then load it into Sonar and add silence at the end by selecting up to the end of the measure and exporting. I was then able to set the proper loop points for playing from the keyboard in ST2 and VSampler, and now having the rest in the right place will line up properly in Acid. I tell this story to say yes, I know how frustrating it can get.

Of course, any excuse to use Reason more is as good as another

[DHR53]

So they weren't exactly 105?? Hmmm... Because they import into Logic corectly either way I try, and show up as exact BPM?? Does seem to be platform dependant, since you're using Sonar on the pc? I've tried all the loops I sent to you in Logic, and they come in at the correct tempo... Arghh! I need more time!

[Bassballjg]

So they weren't exactly 105?? Hmmm... Because they import into Logic corectly either way I try, and show up as exact BPM?? Does seem to be platform dependant, since you're using Sonar on the pc? I've tried all the loops I sent to you in Logic, and they come in at the correct tempo... Arghh! I need more time!

The loops in question are just fine, and probably the beast reason to buy Classic Beatbox!

There may be a difference in how some apps measure these things, but when loaded into an app that snaps to grid and tempo such as Acid or Sonar, the trmpo measured in the wav file doesn't really matter. Some of yours came out 119.9something, really not a big deal as long as one is using them "acidified". I will refer again to my sketchy memory of something about imported clips in Logic which are not codified as Appleloops not snapping to grid and therefore not being quite elastic. I really wish I knew where I read that, because it is a persistant memory even if a fuzzy one.

But because of the differences between groove clips and "regular" audio clips in Sonar, I have noticed the difference in imported audio being exactly to the end of the measure as you described. This happens to "normal" audio whether the project tempo is changed to the tempo of the clip as reported by Sonar, or if the audio is changed to poject tempo after import. But, change that to a goove clip, and it snaps to grid. So insofar as it's a Logic v. Sonar question, this is why I think that Logic is failing to make such a distinction between regular audio and elasticized loop audio.

Dan, I'll write you later in some more detail about this, but be assured that your loops are working just fine, and are due to be rexed later today. The library should be on target to go on sale Friday as planned. Thanks for your effort on the project, I may put you to work again soon.

[DHR53]

I wanted to send more of them in each group, so you could get more variations out of each drum set, but I sort of ran out of time... They're also not processed too much (if at all) and no normalization... hope that was o.k.! The bpm variations sort of has me wondering now, though! Cheers!