Finnish vst Black metal

[Pipenautti87]

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I wanted to share two of my latest Black Metal tracks where I’ve leaned heavily on virtual instruments. My goal was to see how far I could push these in a darker, more aggressive context.

Key instruments used:

Guitars: Ample Sound Metal Hellrazer
Bass: Ample Bass P
Drums: Addictive Drums 2
Vocals: Performed by myself.

https://open.spotify.com/track/1s2cXsw6 ... 0na5rEFAmQ (https://open.spotify.com/track/1s2cXsw6g40A53q2ze77jE?si=X9s-m_hxSIqO0na5rEFAmQ)



---------------
My friend sings here


https://open.spotify.com/track/6bl444ej ... 5u0IRzbtFg (https://open.spotify.com/track/6bl444ejIVUY6TjsjjcIUe?si=5VXSoQ0bTE2G5u0IRzbtFg)

[Benedict]

Careful, you are very quiet here, YT turned you down, which suggests TOO LOUD or poor dynamics.

They sound pretty good, except for that. Did you need a Mastering Engineer (yes me)?

[ChameleonMusic]

Loved it! Both tracks!

I write a lot of different style of music myself, but I'm still a metalhead at heart... most days anyway!

Shades of 'Children of Bodom' in the vocal style at times, with a little more Finntroll in the backing style and sound?

I get Benedict's point above 100%, but actually disagree with him on this particular track (having mixed and mastered metal tracks a number of times over the decades)...

Didn't sound quiet on my playback at all..

Yes it's been volume normalised by YT without a doubt, but most modern metal / heavy rock tracks are...

The trend is to master them hot at anything from -10 LUFS to -7 or even -5 LUFS!

YT volume generally normalises anything hotter than -14 LUFS...this one has had the volume intensity reduced by 45%...so was originally probably around -7 LUFS - perfectly OK for this genre of music.

I though the sound / general production was spot on for Death Metal.

Was the use of VSTs a tiny bit clunky at times....maybe, but it didn't spoil the listen for me at all...both had a well-judged metal 'groove' and flow.

[Benedict]

I get Benedict's point above 100%, but actually disagree with him on this particular track (having mixed and mastered metal tracks a number of times over the decades)...

Didn't sound quiet on my playback at all..

Yes it's been volume normalised by YT without a doubt, but most modern metal / heavy rock tracks are...

Thanks for being even - good mannered.

I discovered that for some reason both of the YT players int he OP had been set to 50% which deffo took a lot away. Then at full fader on YT, it is lacking presence or punch. Stats for Nerds says 34% reduced my 9.4dB which is a LOT. The problem comes from a lack of dynamaic as one can see from my flashy lights not flashing ever, even in the quieter bits. That meter is "stuck". It is a "vanilla sausage.

Now I like the songs and even the overall tone, reminiscent of early Sepultura records that were kinda scratchy. It is a thing. You can't mix Lar's Kik at that speed, it has to become pit, pit, pi, pi, pi, pit to keep up.

Either way it is still pretty cool, I just couldn't listen to it like that as my ears hurt with that sort of 'jammed in a box' feel.

[ChameleonMusic]

Then at full fader on YT, it is lacking presence or punch

That's almost always the way with metal tracks on YT! It's the reason I never listen to heavy rock on that platform!

Listened to the Spotify link on this one and it's much more punchy and full of energy...and obviously louder!

I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Benedict, but it's always good to debate this stuff for me!

The problem comes from a lack of dynamaic

Metal tracks (even the very top of the range ones) are not exactly renowned for their wide dynamic range at all, of course...Listeners often expect the main sections in metal tracks to be thick and loud with minimal dynamic difference between the loudest and quietest sections?

For me, both tracks had plenty of emotional impact / intensity and I didn't find them tiring on the ear.

Of course, this is Death metal which is quite different from other areas of the genre in some ways production-wise…

Mixing is particularly tricky requiring a balance of extreme, punchy drums, particularly dense, distorted guitars, and aggressive yet still intelligible vocals…

Tough Call!

Heavy compression is 100% essential to help control all of the above…

As is…

Quite rigid low-end management, and detailed, accurate EQ to handle those closely packed arrangements.

Creating room for each instrument in the high-mid range is also crucial using a ‘3D mix’ approach – Height, Width and Depth.

These tracks ain’t perfect, but for me they’re very listenable with some catchy musical content.

[ChameleonMusic]

@ poster - apologies for discussing your mix in front of you!

And another apology if you know the following already...

If possible, the "loudness" should be built step by step in the mix through multiple layers of saturation, clipping, and compression on individual tracks (especially on bass & kit).

Some engineers prefer clippers rather than limiters to gain loudness, as they can retain more transient impact (punch) and also add a bit of harmonic saturation.

Rather than just looking at LUFS, also monitor the ‘’Crest Factor’’ (basically the difference between peak and RMS/average level). A good range for modern metal is often around 7 to 7.5ish

Compare your master to professionally released DM tracks.

[Benedict]

I was never saying the tracks didn't sound good in general. I like the songs. I have one on on Spotifry right now.

I also know it is a personal thing. Metal tends ot loud. I like Metal. I never listen to Priest's "Firepower" becasue is is too effing LOUD. Turning it down doesn't solve the issue, seeing there is no space in it (and the semi-limp songs don't help).

If YT is gonna make things feel limp, should one make another version? I guess as you say if all Metal ppl know it will sound a bit gutted...

And that about Crest Factor is what I am talking about, so it is not so like being inside a trash compactor (without Princess Leia)

[ChameleonMusic]

I never listen to Priest's "Firepower" becasue is is too effing LOUD.

Had a few discussions regarding the production of this one...again, we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't find it too loud at all. It's not entirely to my taste 'metal-production-wise'...bit overly polished if anything for my tastes and certainly mastered 'HOT', but for me it's very listenable.

I think Tom Allom and Andy Sneap did a decent job of combining elements of classic metal production with more modern ideas on that one, but maybe just pushed it a little too far for your own personal tastes? It was certainly critically and sales - wise very successful both here and in the USA.

and the semi-limp songs don't help

It's far from my favourite Priest album, but it's OK overall for me....be very careful around JP, dude...I'm born and bred in the Midlands, UK and lived in Birmingham for over 30 years....they are the band I've seen most times live!

If YT is gonna make things feel limp, should one make another version?

Yes! Agreed! Some bands do that in the same way they do radio-friendly mixes etc.

And that about Crest Factor is what I am talking about

Crest Factor on FIREPOWER seems to be around 7dB on average. These songs here it's around 6dB? Bit hot, but acceptable to many a modern metal ear? me - it's not my preferred sound, but I can take it...you, I think you're saying you just find it too loud...fair enough! understandable!

[Benedict]

Yes, after picking everything apart, you finally note what I said in the first place: I cannot tolerate LOUD mixes.

I, as in me, personally, who loves "Sad Wings", "Sin", "Vengeance", "Ram", "Painkiller", and "Redeemer" (along with a lot of Maiden, Dio etc), gets physical pain symptoms from all of this over-loud mixing. Metal, EDM, Pop, Folk: irrelevant. I know many liked "Firepower". So what? That should not be a judgment on me - at least not the way presented in what no longer feels like a discussion so much as a passive-aggressive put-down.

I cannot listen to over-LOUD. Sometimes, even within a minute, my ears hurt. Never happens with older material or even newer material not mixed such that the meters are pinned. And by pinned, they can pin at 50%, and it still hurts ie it is not total PMPO (or whatever) but lack of space. Hence, my saying several times this reminds me of being stuck in a trash compactor. Fact. Unless you want to otherwise pass judgment on my Autism or ADHD or INFJ or whatever it is that makes me.

I get that many probably like the adrenaline rush of that, thinking it is the music itself when it could actually be any noise (hence Spotifry and AI), or even being stuck in a trash compactor. Part of why I refer to most people's relationship with 'music' as being a steady narcotic drip. They pretend they have a role in the choice but all they choose is Vanilla Sausage (not my term).

Enough divide & conquer. To you I may have an issue you feel is irrelevant to you. To me it is not. If I liked the OPs music i would not buy it as I could not listen to it. That is an issue. Music should never hurt - unless it is Yoko Ono, but that is her plan and good on her. Even there, the mixes aren't the reason it is uncomfortable.


As a matter of interest, I popped this on, a modern re-master. It feels fully present (off CD/mp3 but a bit gutted here on YT). At no time do I have to turn off this fave of a record. Unlike a later pressing of Metallica's "Black" that I can no longer get through. Someone put the original CD on YT, and that is easy/enjoyable to listen to despite the turdy-panted howls of kidz who clearly aren't there for the music itself.

[ChameleonMusic]

no longer feels like a discussion so much as a passive-aggressive put-down.

That was never my intention...not the way I approach anything in life, ever!

you finally note what I said in the first place: I cannot tolerate LOUD mixes.

That's not really what you said initially at all to be fair...you simply suggested that the mix was probably too loud because it sounded quiet on YT...''YT turned you down, which suggests TOO LOUD or poor dynamics.''

I cannot listen to over-LOUD. Sometimes, even within a minute, my ears hurt.

100% understood...now that you've specifically explained that you were very much coming at this from a personal perspective! I didn't get that and was simply coming at it all from a purely technical / production debate stance...spent 32 years teaching / lecturing in Music and Music Tech...I'll chat about this kinda stuff for hours!

I know many liked "Firepower". So what? That should not be a judgment on me

Judging you was absolutely NOT the intention; your opinion on it is obviously perfectly valid...just pointing out that many did like it as a balance to your strong dismissal of it ( which I disagreed with to some extent) + then explaining why I thought others appreciated it.

To you I may have an issue you feel is irrelevant to you.

Just that I didn't appreciate that you were coming from a specific, personal experience here...I was just having a general discussion on the Pros / Cons of loud / hot modern metal mixes.

I think detailed debate on such forums is tricky...there's simply been an unfortunate miscommunication / misunderstanding here. if you knew me, you would understand that passive aggressive attacks on people are NOT my style at all.

[Benedict]

Thanks (and for slowing that other wacker's rudeness).

Like you, 35+ years, and this was always my chosen career/life path - even my paid one a few times.

True. People gloss rather than read everything written. Happens to us all, but perhaps more to people who write more to try to be better understood. And then TLDR misquoted. :Grrr:

In another forum once, someone tried to make it a Rule that every time I expressed an opinion, I must put IMO on it lest it be confused for fact. And yet all the utter BS (popular but still BS) he spouted did not need that IMO because he was talking fact! I was raised in a world where your opinion was a given in any statement, it could be true, or it could be like Flat Earthers. Up to people to handle that (with dignity). People acting as if their opinions were facts, but everyone else was IMOing was abhorrent, the sort of BS we had to shoot untold numbers of Germans over. Yet here we are. By the way while I grew up here in Oz, my parents were very English.

[eassae]

Very cool. The mixes seem different between the tracks. The drums feel less compressed in the second track and have more depth and definition across the stereo field. The first track feels a bit flat in the middle in terms of dynamics which has the effect of the sides dominating the mix. That said…both are solid…but the second one is more solid.