Rick Rubin on AI (& now Graeme Revell, too)

[vurt]

mc5 mother...

[machinesworking]

I was never a fan of the early PiL stuff, it didn't do anything for me. The albums after Flower of Romance are the ones I like more and the latest one, End of World, is also quite good. I've seen various line-ups live, too, and always enjoyed the shows.

Agree to disagree, Flowers of Romance is a personal favorite, but Second Edition has some great tracks, Jah Wobbles bass is fantastic. After that it's just pop music for the most part. They are good live though, saw them in 2016 and 1985.

But it's unliklely any of it would have happened without the movement itself and if it was McLaren and the Pistols who got the ball rolling, then it's all down to them.

Not any more than Throbbing Gristle being entirely responsible for Industrial. You can make that argument, all the elements are there: Chris Carters techno influences, the factory sounds, Genesis's fetishes for extremes and transgressive art etc. etc. Thing is, they didn't come up in a vacuum, Dada, Musique Contrete, Kraut Rock, transgressive art etc. already existed.

for sure though, you could name certain groups as being catalysts for a genre taking multiple elements into one whole: Black Sabbath for Heavy Metal, James Brown/George Clinton for Funk, Pistols and Ramones for Punk, Throbbing Gristle and Cabaret Voltaire for Industrial.

Then there's groups like Kraftwerk where the influence is across multiple genres of electronic music, same could be said for Tangerine Dream really.

[jancivil]

I can think of no worse experience than someone who doesn't even check to see if they're talking about the same thing, jumping to a conclusion, ignoring the point and then ridiculing what was purely their misconstruction, let alone some jive-ass shit like "Burning Man" to make it personal. You can kiss my ass. "Quoting quantum mechanics as regards the human mind" is Category Error. I'm done reading that shit.

[BONES]

Maybe you need to learn to communicate better?

Flowers of Romance is a personal favorite, but Second Edition has some great tracks, Jah Wobbles bass is fantastic.

More of a Dave Allen fan, myself. Although much more famous in their time, Jah Wobble and Barry Adamson never stood out to me. Of course, JJ Burnel is in another league, entirely.

Not any more than Throbbing Gristle being entirely responsible for Industrial.

What did Industrial ever do? Again, I'm talking about the movement, not the genre. Industrial wouldn't have gone anywhere, probably would never have been at all, without Punk.

You can make that argument, all the elements are there: Chris Carters techno influences, the factory sounds, Genesis's fetishes for extremes and transgressive art etc. etc. Thing is, they didn't come up in a vacuum, Dada, Musique Contrete, Kraut Rock, transgressive art etc. already existed.

As did a hundred bands none of us have ever heard of, which would have been Throbbing Gristle's fate without Punk. Punk created the environment in which so many other artists were able to flourish.

[Seafire Mk2]

Punk was just one of a long line of movements/genres in musical progression.

[machinesworking]

What did Industrial ever do? Again, I'm talking about the movement, not the genre. Industrial wouldn't have gone anywhere, probably would never have been at all, without Punk.

I think it would have, Industrial took transgression from the art world separately from punk. They influenced each other, but there was already a backlash to the overtly positive vibe routine of the hippies.

As did a hundred bands none of us have ever heard of, which would have been Throbbing Gristle's fate without Punk. Punk created the environment in which so many other artists were able to flourish.

In the bigger picture you could say the punk movement as a catalyst for change is responsible for Punk, Goth, Industrial, Indie and countless sub genres. It's why it's pretty clear that the Ramones sparked it, but having a scene around it like in London made it a movement and not just four guys doing their own thing without regard to what the rest of the world was up to. The NY scene was far darker in terms of drug use, and less flamboyant.

The tie between the Ramones and Cabaret Voltaire is mostly about being untrained musicians who wanted to play music regardless of their skill level, beyond that the whole thing falls apart. But yeah, sparking attention on one area like London and having something seem vibrant and alive VS some art project record, or thuggish hippie minimalists, that's when things get to Oregon in the USA where I was and whatever town you were in Australia when you heard about all of the noise going on.

[vurt]

not forgetting the spades/thirteenth floor elevators - you're gonna miss me.

[BONES]

I think it would have, Industrial took transgression from the art world separately from punk. They influenced each other, but there was already a backlash to the overtly positive vibe routine of the hippies.

I'm not talking about influence or style, I am talking about opportunity. Punk opened the door for a lot of non-mainstream things, purely by virtue of its success, in much the same way that the Seattle scene took a lot of alternative music mainstream in the 1990s.

In the bigger picture you could say the punk movement as a catalyst for change is responsible for Punk, Goth, Industrial, Indie and countless sub genres. It's why it's pretty clear that the Ramones sparked it, but having a scene around it like in London made it a movement and not just four guys doing their own thing without regard to what the rest of the world was up to.

Exactly that.

[machinesworking]

I'm not talking about influence or style, I am talking about opportunity. Punk opened the door for a lot of non-mainstream things, purely by virtue of its success, in much the same way that the Seattle scene took a lot of alternative music mainstream in the 1990s.

No I agree for sure, having immediately 10 bands come out of one solid Ramones show in 75/early 76 made a massive difference, and you can again credit McLaren and Westwood for getting hundreds of kids to hit the streets in their gear.

Yeah the Grunge scene in Seattle was oddly personally disappointing. I moved here in 1989 and mostly because multiple bands and art movements I liked targeted Seattle, Einstürzende Neubauten, Skinny Puppy, Laibach, and Big Black did their last show at an old Steam plant here, plus Survival Research Labs did events up here. The drummer from Ministry Bill Rieflin is from here. So I figured it had musicians to play with etc. then I move here and it's all Grunge within about a year of living here. Come to find out a local manager, art dealer was why there was that connection, and that Industrial was huge in 85, and mostly a side show by 90.